• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Meanmanturbo

General
91 Badges
May 19, 2008
2.263
5.417
  • Sengoku
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • For the Motherland
  • Deus Vult
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
One thing, If you answer the call of an ally in an aggressive war (Im thinkning like sweden allied to austria in this case), would it be cheaper in any way for example sweden in this case to add in their own war goals of claiming the cores in finland (well, assuming they have them in this game)? Would there be alliance goals, for multiple countries or would it be alliance leader takes it all? Would lesser parts of alliances peace out when they think they can get away with it or are there mechanics for avoiding separate peace deals?
 

OHgamer

Victoria's Plastic Surgeon
38 Badges
Jan 28, 2003
18.057
650
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
By the way, OHgamer, can you answer this little question. It has been brought up in multiple threads and it is confusing people.

Not sure on this one re Ruling Party Only. I *think* it means that the upper house will look like whichever party controls the lower house. I don't think nations with democratic political systems can have that version of upper house, only non-democratic ones, since elections for the lower house would lead to chaos in the upper house every few years if different parties replaced each other.
 

OHgamer

Victoria's Plastic Surgeon
38 Badges
Jan 28, 2003
18.057
650
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
One thing, If you answer the call of an ally in an aggressive war (Im thinkning like sweden allied to austria in this case), would it be cheaper in any way for example sweden in this case to add in their own war goals of claiming the cores in finland (well, assuming they have them in this game)? Would there be alliance goals, for multiple countries or would it be alliance leader takes it all? Would lesser parts of alliances peace out when they think they can get away with it or are there mechanics for avoiding separate peace deals?

Do not know off the top of my head. I only think alliance leaders can initiate peace talks, but alliance leaders can make peace with subordinate members of the other side, including I suppose accepting any wargoals those subordinate members have, if any. But again this is an area of the game I'm hazy on.
 

Sarmatia1871

Field Marshal
56 Badges
Mar 22, 2004
3.889
352
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
But right now, I'm not feeling the AI being too aggressive. Britain trying to round out its holdings in South Asia makes perfect sense, and AUS being opportunistic by taking a piece of the old Polish Commonwelth to balance Russian gains in Azerbaijan is as much global balance of power as anything else.

This I think is the crux of the issue here - Britain expanding in South Asia and Russia expanding in the Caucasus and Central Asia make perfect sense in the context of the time period the game is supposed to emulate, where Great Powers annexing minors in areas which are in their backyard or zone of influence was very common, and a standard part of diplomacy.

What is not in line with the theme of the period is Great Powers opportunistically attacking one another and grabbing little bits of territory here and there. In the entire period covered by Vicky2 there were a grand total of six wars between what could be termed as European Great Powers, and they were tied to very big, destabilizing processes like German and Italian unification, the erosion of the Ottoman Empire, and then the entire descent into the First World War.

There were deep rivalries between many Great Powers, but there were sizeable risks to prevent major wars, and big networks of collective guarantees to prevent this from happening - and whenever a great power war happened, it was regarded as a massive event, had major geopolitical implications, and also had a great deal of buildup.

I'm hoping there's some way to emulate this more easily than complex MM-style contextual events or National Decision systems (or an expansion pack), but this sort of thing doesn't really bode too well that the vanilla game is really going to cut it.
 

Aragos

PON Beta
23 Badges
Dec 30, 2002
2.335
1
Visit site
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • East India Company Collection
  • Crusader Kings II
I almost spit out my scotch at the sight of Aragos!

King has explained that it won't be possible due to the way voting works. In short, so long as the Democrats don't split between their southern (Reactionary) and northern (Conservative) wings, they'll remain the ruling party in the Senate. Abolition through normal legislative procedure will be impossible.

When militancy rises and the Dems cleave, it all goes to hell anyway.

What a waste of good scotch! How you been Petrarca?

OH--really enjoying the AAR. Thanks for the clarification on slavery issues; I saw that and thought "well, if I can end it with a click, I'm figuring on 2 Jan 1836 as a good date."

This leads to another question; how much will Vic2 be driven by events? I see some on the AAR, will it be as heavy as Vic1 was?

As an aside, and in answer to some of the posts saying 'X would never happen in history', it seems to me that a good dynamic game (as it seems V2 will be) means a sort of 'butterfly effect.' Example: OH really screws the pooch with France, causes a lot of his people to emigrate to other countries. Suddenly, the USA and Brazil have loads of French immigrants, which allow for industrial expansion, which provides more $$, etc.

Nice to see that the player can impact the way the world works, and is not just a victim of pre-destined (and scripted) events.
 

OHgamer

Victoria's Plastic Surgeon
38 Badges
Jan 28, 2003
18.057
650
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
This I think is the crux of the issue here - Britain expanding in South Asia and Russia expanding in the Caucasus and Central Asia make perfect sense in the context of the time period the game is supposed to emulate, where Great Powers annexing minors in areas which are in their backyard or zone of influence was very common, and a standard part of diplomacy.

What is not in line with the theme of the period is Great Powers opportunistically attacking one another and grabbing little bits of territory here and there. In the entire period covered by Vicky2 there were a grand total of six wars between what could be termed as European Great Powers, and they were tied to very big, destabilizing processes like German and Italian unification, the erosion of the Ottoman Empire, and then the entire descent into the First World War.

There were deep rivalries between many Great Powers, but there were sizeable risks to prevent major wars, and big networks of collective guarantees to prevent this from happening - and whenever a great power war happened, it was regarded as a massive event, had major geopolitical implications, and also had a great deal of buildup.

I'm hoping there's some way to emulate this more easily than complex MM-style contextual events or National Decision systems (or an expansion pack), but this sort of thing doesn't really bode too well that the vanilla game is really going to cut it.

So what are you trying to say, that there should be some sort of harness system to ensure that the AI and human players of major powers don't attempt to start wars with each other unless tied in to some "great destabilizing process"?

If I was a human playing Austria, and noticed the Russians had gotten bogged down in Central Asian and Caucasus battles, would I not be tempted to try and snatch some territory from the Russians to weaken them? Why should the Russians be the only ones to grab territory, which if successful would strenghten them and then likely make them even more of a powerful threat on my borders? A limited war to push the Russian frontier several provinces to the east might just be the right idea if Russia, once its done expanding in Asia, decides to turn West.

should a human player thus also be limited that way in what they might want to do with their nation on the geopolitical scale, because it is against "the spirit of the times?" And if the answer to that is No, provided there are consequences to their actions, then why should the AI therefore be constrained from doing something that a calculating human player might himself try to do?

Yes there should be (and are) consequences, AUS gains a bit of infamy from snatching a state away from Russia. Declaring war on PRU is likely going to give it more infamy, and as we saw in Peekee's AAR, a nation that does get too much infamy is eventually going to see a day or reckoning come. And if AUS loses its war with PRU, the disgrace of starting a war and not completing it is going to come home to roost with the Empire's population. If players feel these consequences are not aggressive enough, they can be modded to make them more draconian.

Plus, in my game I am playing France and I am making quite an aggressive push for influence in Italy. Should AUS just stand there and do nothing? If it can get its other neighbors put in place and have secure borders, all the better for AUS to deal with me (and my ahistorical behavior in Italy) at a time of its choosing with less risk that if I get PRU or RUS into an alliance it could all come crashing down on Vienna once we do get into a hot war.
 

OHgamer

Victoria's Plastic Surgeon
38 Badges
Jan 28, 2003
18.057
650
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
Would you be able to bring Italian nations into an alliance without having them in your sphere of influence?

Yes, just have good diplo relations and you'll probably get an alliance with an unaffiliated nation.

also, I have an alliance with Belgium even though it is in ENG's SoI, so being in an SoI does not automatically make a nation cut off from the rest of the world. SoI =/= Satellite.
 

Faeelin

Field Marshal
79 Badges
Dec 15, 2001
7.283
2.546
Visit site
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
If I was a human playing Austria, and noticed the Russians had gotten bogged down in Central Asian and Caucasus battles, would I not be tempted to try and snatch some territory from the Russians to weaken them? Why should the Russians be the only ones to grab territory, which if successful would strenghten them and then likely make them even more of a powerful threat on my borders?

Why did Austria, Prussia, France, and Russia remain at peace until 1848 (and arguably until 1866?) Why did Austria sit out the Crimean War, instead of going BWAHAH, KIEV IS OURS?
 
May 15, 2010
698
13
I think the major complaint is that all these wars are taking place far too quickly.

What is it, about 1839? You're two or three years in and you've already had several major wars (or at least wars involving major powers), which seems a bit excessive to some of us.

There are too many wars taking place in too short a period of time.

Austen.
 

unmerged(75409)

Field Marshal
Apr 30, 2007
7.727
101
This I think is the crux of the issue here - Britain expanding in South Asia and Russia expanding in the Caucasus and Central Asia make perfect sense in the context of the time period the game is supposed to emulate, where Great Powers annexing minors in areas which are in their backyard or zone of influence was very common, and a standard part of diplomacy.

What is not in line with the theme of the period is Great Powers opportunistically attacking one another and grabbing little bits of territory here and there. In the entire period covered by Vicky2 there were a grand total of six wars between what could be termed as European Great Powers, and they were tied to very big, destabilizing processes like German and Italian unification, the erosion of the Ottoman Empire, and then the entire descent into the First World War.

There were deep rivalries between many Great Powers, but there were sizeable risks to prevent major wars, and big networks of collective guarantees to prevent this from happening - and whenever a great power war happened, it was regarded as a massive event, had major geopolitical implications, and also had a great deal of buildup.

I'm hoping there's some way to emulate this more easily than complex MM-style contextual events or National Decision systems (or an expansion pack), but this sort of thing doesn't really bode too well that the vanilla game is really going to cut it.

Awww come on, losing a chunk of the Ukraine and a few thousand serfs is not going to make or break the European balance of power. It's not like losing Rovno would gimp Russia for the remainder of the game, or turn Austria into a superpower. I think it's actually a nice example of a limited war that still carries some significance, just like the Russian wars against Persia (one state/concession at a time?). In Vic1 the Austro-Russian war would either turn into a massive ten year war, leaving the victor with a grab bag of scattered provinces, or fizzle out as a white peace. A peace with one province changing hands fits very well into the era IMHO.

It's still a game... what would you rather have, an AI hardcoded to prefer peace, falling asleep eventually without the player noticing it? Or an opportunistic AI seeking cheap victories where it may find them, keeping the game exciting even if makes the world look more like a Steampunked cartoon version of the 19th century?

I vividly remember the failings of the old Vic1 engine, where both designers and modders did their best to "railroad" the game to their version of what should make historic sense, and as a result the diplo AIs could fall asleep without anyone noticing, because the game was designed to discourage spontaneity and opportunism. I would rather not play that game again. I want a game that is fun and challenging even in the early phase, a game that is more like a multiplayer game in terms of dynamism and opportunity than a history book reenactment. The single player AI should NOT be designed to be a sparring partner for someone who wants to see the history book reenacted. The AI should have the freedom to choose whether to pursue economical and political expansion, or use temporary military superiority to whack you over the head as an opening gambit.

And frankly it would be a testament to good game design if both make sense... good games are games where you can choose from a variety of strategies, rather than have one strategy forced on you because all the others are artificially discouraged.

Yes this means in the game the concert of Europe will not be depicted historically (i.e. as a club of sleepy headed absolutists afraid of revolutions) but rather as if Machiavelli was behind each throne. All the better in my view.

Real life is where you desire peace and want people to just get along... real life does not make for an interesting game :D
 

Sarmatia1871

Field Marshal
56 Badges
Mar 22, 2004
3.889
352
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
So what are you trying to say, that there should be some sort of harness system to ensure that the AI and human players of major powers don't attempt to start wars with each other unless tied in to some "great destabilizing process"?

Pretty much, yes. Wars between great powers should - as they were historically - be rare and huge events which happen for significant reasons and carry significant risks in terms of international standing, internal stability, and the likely reactions of other great powers. To get anything approaching the historical diplomacy of the period, there should really be quite robust game mechanics in place to make these difficult and unusual (for both humans and the AI) beyond getting a bit of infamy and risking a "badboy war."

Particularly given your next examples of how a player should want to act, the issue really does seem to be that the diplomacy system of Vicky2 is basically the EU3 one with the addition of some limited nobs, which was designed to simulate a period where wars between big countries for limited reasons and objectives were relatively common. However, this is going to have significant difficulties attempting to portray the sorts of collective diplomacy and international balancing acts of the nineteenth-century great power system - which was as important to the period and the themes the game is attempting to model as imperialism, industrialization and political reforms.
 

Andrelvis

The Last Ghibelline
76 Badges
Apr 30, 2006
5.598
9.962
  • 500k Club
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
Perhaps, but V1's AI was too peaceful (except when there were scripted wars, of course).
 

unmerged(75409)

Field Marshal
Apr 30, 2007
7.727
101
Why did Austria, Prussia, France, and Russia remain at peace until 1848 (and arguably until 1866?) Why did Austria sit out the Crimean War, instead of going BWAHAH, KIEV IS OURS?

Real life is where you rejoice when the war is over. Real life is not a good model for an imperialist game. :D

What is Austria supposed to do... fight uncivs rather than European powers?? Would you rather see that?

The Prussian kings prior to Wilhelm I were imbeciles, complete and utter idiots, inept at diplomacy and afraid of angering Vienna. Would you want the Prussian AI to reflect historical reality, or act as if Macchiavelli was in control behind the throne?
 

Sarmatia1871

Field Marshal
56 Badges
Mar 22, 2004
3.889
352
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
Real life is where you desire peace and want people to just get along... real life does not make for an interesting game :D

:D Actually, one of the things I liked most about Vicky1 was that it was a game where building yourself up peacefully and through internal development was just as viable a strategy as going on an annexationist rampage.

And I'm not saying that great power warfare shouldn't be a useful tool in the game - but it should be one which comes with really serious consequences and preconditions.
 

unmerged(75409)

Field Marshal
Apr 30, 2007
7.727
101
Pretty much, yes. Wars between great powers should - as they were historically - be rare and huge events which happen for significant reasons and carry significant risks in terms of international standing, internal stability, and the likely reactions of other great powers. To get anything approaching the historical diplomacy of the period, there should really be quite robust game mechanics in place to make these difficult and unusual (for both humans and the AI) beyond getting a bit of infamy and risking a "badboy war."

I disagree, disagree, disagree a thousand times! :D
 

OHgamer

Victoria's Plastic Surgeon
38 Badges
Jan 28, 2003
18.057
650
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
Why did Austria, Prussia, France, and Russia remain at peace until 1848 (and arguably until 1866?) Why did Austria sit out the Crimean War, instead of going BWAHAH, KIEV IS OURS?

Because the rulers at the time felt it was the best things for their societies based on their evaluations of the conditions in which they existed.

But the game has already moved into ahistorial areas - Russia annexed Iranian Azerbaijan and have declared war on Kokand with land acquision as a goal. Russia never conquered Iranian Azerbaijan and did not take Kokand out until the late 1860s.

And I as France am already moving aggressively into Italy much more than the July Monarchy ever contemplated and now fighting a war with the Ottomans for dominance in Tunisia.

Given those geopolitical realities of a Russia and France both expanding their power in an ahistorical manner, does it make sense for Austria AI to just sit idly by and do nothing, simply because "historically the period between 1815 and 1853 there were no GP wars in Europe". A huamn playing Austria probably would not just sit there and let Russia and France do what has happened without seeking to do something to increase its own power.

Might it not make for a more challenging game for me as France for Austria to try and build up its power at a time when I and Russia are expanding, first by seeking land in Ukraine to give itself a bigger buffer of land between Russian armies and Vienna, and second by trying to settle the question of dominance in Germany once and for all (and lets not forget AUS was willing to risk war with PRU in 1850 over that very issue, the Prussians folded before conflict broke out).

Again, the AI behavior here is not in the realm of the unplausible, given what has happened in my game in the first two years. It's not like Austria is out of the blue DoW'ing Brazil or Siam for no reason whatsoever. The world of my AAR in 1837 already off the rails, and to expect some sort of Ranke-like affinity to actual history in terms of gameplay by the AI in this kind of environment really does make little sense. The AI is behaving in what it is calculating as its best interest to win the game, and in my opinion the decisions it has made make sense and are historically plausible given the game context.
 

Faeelin

Field Marshal
79 Badges
Dec 15, 2001
7.283
2.546
Visit site
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2