[v1.3.3](2dd2) Major Paratrooper Bug - No paradrop penalty, game treats attacking paras as defenders

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Beethoven

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There is a significant bug for paratroopers, in which they appear to be treated by the game as "defending," rather than attacking, when they make a paradrop.

Example:

Romanian paratroopers assault the Maginot line:

Screenshot (284).png

Here we can see that the Romanians are treated as the defenders in the battle. The game uses the paratroopers' "defense" stat, whereas one would think that a paradrop is an attack, and should therefore use their "breakthrough" stat. In addition, even though they are paradropping into the battle, they get no penalty for paradropping at all.

And the French units:
Screenshot (285).png

The French units, although they are sitting in the Maginot line forts, are treated as though they are *assaulting* the Maginot line. The game uses their "breakthrough" stat rather than their defense stat. What is more, even though France should be the defender of the Maginot line, the French also get the terrain penalties and fort penalties for assaulting the Maginot line, and so they have 0 breakthrough and 0 soft attack in the battle.

What makes this bug even worse is how it can interact with retreating and overruns. Here I set up a paradrop on one province and also on all the provinces *behind* the lines that the French could maybe retreat to. But they are not allowed to retreat into the ongoing paradrop battles. And so if they either are already set retreating, or else if they simply run out of org from a simultaneous attack on the front line, then they get overrun/wiped:

Screenshot (286).png

This happened in a recent multiplayer game in which I was the UK and UK and commonwealth had around 40-50 divisions defending El Alemein. With a simultaneous paradrop attack and attack on the front line, with paratroopers landing on our defending troops behind the line, we lost our entire defending force in this way.

It also is hugely OP/bugged for doing things like paradropping on top of Gibraltar, or paradropping into a port in the UK. Since with the bug, you need *breakthrough* to defend against a paradrop rather than defense, the only type of garrison that has any chance against paratroopers is tanks. It is obviously too expensive to have all your garrisons be tanks. And paradoxically, the better a defensive position is (good defensive terrain and forts), the more vulnerable it is to paratroopers. So if you build forts to try to defend a place like Gibraltar, that can actually make it easier for paratroopers to take.

In reality, paratroopers should have a very tough time of it if they land directly on top of enemy troops. See Operation Market Garden.



It seems that a paradrop penalty only gets applied if the troops they land on top of are moving and the time the paratroopers land. Example of that here. In this screenshot, before doing the paradrop, I set the French troops in the corner (in the province in the top right with the red 54 battle in the screenshot) to move to a different province before starting the Romanian paradrop. In this case, since the French troops were moving at the time the Romanians landed on top of them, the game treats the French as the defenders and the Romanian paratroopers as the attackers:

Screenshot (289).png

Attached is a save game showing a paradrop attack in progress.
 

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  • ROM_1936_07_02_17 PARA IN PROGRESS.hoi4
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FrancescoT

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@Ceebie would you mind taking a look? :cool:
 

Ceebie

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Hey Beethoven, I am unable to reproduce this internally. Do you have a save before you triggered the paradrop rather than one where it is already taking place?
Every time I execute a paradrop order they get the penalty and are attacking.
There does seem to be an issue that the 3D model looks as if it is defending and has the shield icon, which I have bugged.
 

Attachments

  • paradrop 1.png
    paradrop 1.png
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Vidkjaer

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Hey Beethoven, I am unable to reproduce this internally. Do you have a save before you triggered the paradrop rather than one where it is already taking place?
Every time I execute a paradrop order they get the penalty and are attacking.
There does seem to be an issue that the 3D model looks as if it is defending and has the shield icon, which I have bugged.
I have encountered a similar issue with displaying the defending icon when attacking in an earlier version.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ion-has-defending-icon-when-attacking.968697/
 

BaddoSpirito

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Hey Beethoven, I am unable to reproduce this internally. Do you have a save before you triggered the paradrop rather than one where it is already taking place?
Every time I execute a paradrop order they get the penalty and are attacking.
There does seem to be an issue that the 3D model looks as if it is defending and has the shield icon, which I have bugged.
Umm this is really weird but I can reproduce the bug with Italian and Romanian paratroopers but not with German.
 

Beethoven

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Hey Beethoven, I am unable to reproduce this internally. Do you have a save before you triggered the paradrop rather than one where it is already taking place?
Every time I execute a paradrop order they get the penalty and are attacking.
There does seem to be an issue that the 3D model looks as if it is defending and has the shield icon, which I have bugged.

When you tried to reproduce it yourself, did you have AI turned off? If not, was AI moving troops back and forth in the Maginot line?

Yeah, attached is the save from before running the paradrop. Importantly, you need to go to the console commands and type in "ai" to turn off the AI before running it. Otherwise the AI is likely to have troops moving around on the front line, and if you land on moving troops you don't get the penalty. As a guess, this might be why we spotted this in multiplayer, but it was not spotted before in single player, because the human players in MP were not using the battleplanner.

From this Romania save, I also just tried to run it without AI turned off, and in that case I did not get the bug for at least one of the paradrops because the AI started moving its troops on the Maginot line around.

Umm this is really weird but I can reproduce the bug with Italian and Romanian paratroopers but not with German.

Did you have AI turned off with the console command?
 

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  • ROM_1936_07_01_13 PARA BEFORE.hoi4
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Beethoven

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Umm this is really weird but I can reproduce the bug with Italian and Romanian paratroopers but not with German.

OK, this *is* weird. I just tried it with Germany as well, and similarly I didn't get the bug for Germany. But do for Romanian paratroopers.

Screenshot (291).png
 

Attachments

  • GER_1936_06_23_06 PARA BEFORE.hoi4
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  • GER_1936_06_24_07 PARA DURING.hoi4
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Beethoven

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Yeah, here I set it up so that both Germany and Romania do a paradrop at the same time in the same save. Romanians drop on 2 parts of the northern Maginot line, Germans drop on 4 provinces in the eastern Maginot line. The Germans get the penalty working correctly, whereas the Romanians get the bug.

Screenshot (292).png
 

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  • BOTH GER ROM PARA BEFORE.hoi4
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P3D

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Just a note, those GER paratroopers drop in a province next to the GER frontline(GER-occupied provinces), while the ROM paratroopers don't. What happens if you drop the GER paras two provinces deep?
 

BaddoSpirito

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Just a note, those GER paratroopers drop in a province next to the GER frontline(GER-occupied provinces), while the ROM paratroopers don't. What happens if you drop the GER paras two provinces deep?
Frontline is not the issue. Neither is doctrines, advisors or templates. I tested for those.
 

Ceebie

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Hello everyone,
Has anyone managed to get steps to reproduce, preferably from a new game, that consistently reproduce this issue?
I agree that if it's this broken, it super needs to be fixed. But I am completely unable to reproduce it and have spent a lot of time on this already.
 

BaddoSpirito

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Hello everyone,
Has anyone managed to get steps to reproduce, preferably from a new game, that consistently reproduce this issue?
I agree that if it's this broken, it super needs to be fixed. But I am completely unable to reproduce it and have spent a lot of time on this already.
1. Launch game with Romania.
2. Enable research_on_icon_click cheat to research paratrooper tech.
3. Switch all the armies you have to paratroopers.
4. Use add_latest_equipment cheat.
5. Add 300 fighters and 10 transport planes on Bessarabia and Moldova.
6. Put all planes on Ukraine with air sup mission.
7. Give strat redeploy order to 8 paratrooper divisions each to the two airports in Bessarabia and Moldova.
8. Disable AI.
9. Wait until paratroopers reach destination.
10. Set up paradrop orders on two provinces on which there are Soviet troops.
11. Use allowdiplo cheat to declare on Soviet.
12. Execute paradrop order.

Here is a save taken right after step 10.

I don't think the exact ordering matters since I've run a couple of tests before and I consistently get the bug with Italy and Romania and I don't get the bug with Germany. I haven't tested with other countries so far.
 

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  • Paratroop Bug 1.hoi4
    4,9 MB · Views: 1

bitmode

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if it's this broken
Does that mean you couldn't even reproduce the bug with @Beethoven 's earlier save either? Both that one and the new one from @BaddoSpirito immediately reproduce the bug for me.

Also here's another case using France showing that the bug very likely involves the internal ordering of countries. Using the same steps as @BaddoSpirito I paradrop into Luxembourg (internally sorted after France) and Sweden (internally sorted before France). In Luxembourg this results in an attack while in Sweden it's a defense, i.e. the country that is sorted earlier gets to be the attacker. (Germany is the first country in the internal ordering).

Edit: added the file

Edit2:
GER, ENG, SOV, SWE, FRA, LUX, BEL, HOL, CZE, POL, AUS, LIT, EST, LAT, SPR, ITA, ROM, YUG, SER, SWI, TUR, GRE, ALB, NOR, DEN, BUL, POR, FIN, IRE, HUN, AFG, ARG, AST, BHU, BOL, BRA, CAN, CHI, CHL, COL, COS, ECU, ELS, ETH, GUA, HON, IRQ, JAP, KOR, LIB, MEX, MEN, NEP, NIC, NZL, PAN, PER, PHI, PRU, SAF, SAU, SIA, SIK, TIB, URG, VEN, YUN, USA, MON, TAN, PAR, CUB, DOM, HAI, YEM, OMA, SLO, RAJ, CRO, GXC, PRC, SHX, XSM, ICE, LEB, JOR, SYR, EGY, LBA, WGR, DDR, PAL, ISR, VIN, CAM, MAL, INS, LAO, MNT, UKR, GEO, KAZ, AZR, ARM, BLR, ANG, MZB, ZIM, COG, KEN, PAK, BOT, MAN, D01, D02, D03, D04, D05, D06, D07, D08, D09, D10, D11, D12, D13, D14, D15

Manchukuo, Master of paratroopers
 

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Last edited:

Beethoven

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Does that mean you couldn't even reproduce the bug with @Beethoven 's earlier save either? Both that one and the new one from @BaddoSpirito immediately reproduce the bug for me.

Also here's another case using France showing that the bug very likely involves the internal ordering of countries. Using the same steps as @BaddoSpirito I paradrop into Luxembourg (internally sorted after France) and Sweden (internally sorted before France). In Luxembourg this results in an attack while in Sweden it's a defense, i.e. the country that is sorted earlier gets to be the attacker. (Germany is the first country in the internal ordering).

Edit: added the file

Edit2:
GER, ENG, SOV, SWE, FRA, LUX, BEL, HOL, CZE, POL, AUS, LIT, EST, LAT, SPR, ITA, ROM, YUG, SER, SWI, TUR, GRE, ALB, NOR, DEN, BUL, POR, FIN, IRE, HUN, AFG, ARG, AST, BHU, BOL, BRA, CAN, CHI, CHL, COL, COS, ECU, ELS, ETH, GUA, HON, IRQ, JAP, KOR, LIB, MEX, MEN, NEP, NIC, NZL, PAN, PER, PHI, PRU, SAF, SAU, SIA, SIK, TIB, URG, VEN, YUN, USA, MON, TAN, PAR, CUB, DOM, HAI, YEM, OMA, SLO, RAJ, CRO, GXC, PRC, SHX, XSM, ICE, LEB, JOR, SYR, EGY, LBA, WGR, DDR, PAL, ISR, VIN, CAM, MAL, INS, LAO, MNT, UKR, GEO, KAZ, AZR, ARM, BLR, ANG, MZB, ZIM, COG, KEN, PAK, BOT, MAN, D01, D02, D03, D04, D05, D06, D07, D08, D09, D10, D11, D12, D13, D14, D15

Manchukuo, Master of paratroopers

Ah, nice work. After Baddo found that the bug seemed to apply for some countries but not others, I was wondering if it might be something like that, but I didn't know about this internal ordering. Seems like that is probably it - good job!

So then I guess the 'best' paratroopers are from the countries the game creates halfway through, like Nationalist Spain and Vichy France. :p