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I’d say a construction ratio of around 2 x CVs to 1 x new quick BB should be adequate. Would an SHBB be able to keep up? If not, then we shouldn’t be wasting research, steel and factories on them, sadly for some.
If we only get 1 BB for every 2 CVs, they better be SHBBs and not Fast Battleships, otherwise this ratio is so in favour of the Carrier proponents that one would start to wonder whether you're actually interested in a compromise. As a counter, I would propose 2 regular sized new BBs for every 3 new CVs, and that's as far as I'm willing to go.

Yes, best check the sake. The Americans may have been doctoring it with experimental mind-altering substances in order to undermine our military planning. ;) The nurse didn’t train in the US, did she? :eek:
So I started watching the Sake supply, and guess what? The US nor my nurse had anything to do with it. I caught the Yakuza man who guards my house tampering with my supply. He may have just been stealing some, but I can't rule out an attempt to cloud my judgement with drugs.

As a competent Admiral has been defined as one who supports CV fleets, by the Carrier Faction itself no less, that means that by definition a superior and awesome Admiral must support fleets led by the one true Queen of the Sea, the Super Heavy Battleship.
I do feel like 'Queen of the Sea' is rather diminutive for an SHBB, I far prefer 'Empress of the Sea', but otherwise, I see your point. That said, all this bickering risks giving the Army the space they need to take funding from us. If we can propose a widely supported naval construction strategy, we are more likely to get the increase in the naval budget we want. If any Admiral were to take over from those Army crooks, I'm starting to believe he will get more done if he endorses a strategy that includes both BB and CV construction as that will allow him to get some support from both major factions in the Navy, who would then be afraid to have him removed, just in case his successor were to favour the other. This will be made easier if we already have a scaleable and balanced Naval construction plan ready to go.

No, the BB just needs to be fast enough to act as a large escort. SHBB is overkill for that - and wasted additional research. Happy enough to keep researching the best modern BB designs (as long as they’re fast enough) which will surpass the SHBBs anyway. Don’t need those 20+ inch guns when the CAGs can deliver what’s necessary for a far greater distance. Carrier-led, and therefore Carrier Admiral led. :p
I can understand your point of view, though I do believe we would benefit greatly from having at least a couple of SHBBs with 20" guns, I would rather make a fair deal that results in some modern battleship construction than to insist on SHBBs or nothing. Let's say it all together, whether we prefer new-fangled flat-tops or battle-proven floating fortresses: 'The Combined Fleet is the future of Naval Warfare'

RobaS3,
Afraid the new plan of compromise within the Navy to present a united front to the politicians is already falling apart before the terms have been agreed upon.
 
Chapter Forty-Five: The Fifth Week - 29.7.1937 To 4.8.1937
Utsunimiya's War
(HoI3 TFH - Interactive Japan AAR)
Chapter Forty-Five: The Fifth Week - 29.7.1937 To 4.8.1937

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The Land War​

At the start of the fifth week the Army was engaged in three battles. The Battle of Nangong, the Battle of Yangquan, and the Battle of Hunyuan. All of which they were winning.

The first, the Battle of Nangong, ended shortly after midnight on the 29th of July. It was a Army victory. The Japanese had lost 19 soldiers while the Chinese had lost 112 soldiers.

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By the time the sun was peeking over the horizon the Battle of Yangquan also came to an end. Another victory in which the Army lost 20 soldiers while the Shanxi lost 75 men.

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At this point it was clear that the Nationalist 'Revolutionary' Army was having problems. Unless they received reinforcements, and soon, their battle line was going to fall apart.

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Around this time the Battle of Siziwang Qi, on the Shanxi border, had started when a Japanese cavalry unit attacked two Shanxi infantry divisions.

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Back near the coast a Chinese unit tried to slow down the Japanese marching into Cangzhou. And totally failed as the Japanese swept them out of the way. The Army lost not a man while the Chinese lost 3 men from their vanguard.

In Nangong the withdrawing Chinese infantry, failing to move fast enough, were overcome by the advancing Japanese. And therefore another Battle of Nangong began.

At midnight on the 30th the Battle of Hunyyuan came to an end. The Army lost 28 men while the Shanxi lost 190. While the Shanxi WERE being pushed back they seemed to be better at keeping their lines in one piece.

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On the morning of the 31st the 19. Hohei Shidan in northern Korea was, once again, complaining about a lack of supplies. And, once again, the locals complained about the Japanese soldiers were taking their stuff and leaving behind useless IOUs.

It seems that the Shanxi were still hopeful about their odds at keeping the Japanese Army contained and launched an attack on the Japanese troops in the Province of Yangquan. And were defeated. The Shanxi lost 11 men while the Japanese lost no one.

A few hours before noon the Japanese stated the Battle of Xinzhou hitting Shanxi militia with a Mountain Division. It ended shortly before midnight as a victory for the Army. 5 Japanese soldiers died during the engagement while the Shanxi lost 80 soldiers.

By the afternoon of the 31st the Chinese front line looked like a wet paper bag. Unfortunately many of the Army's front line units were showing signs of supply issues. Would the Army start to run out of steam before they could start pushing through the holes?

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By the 1st of August the Army announced another victory as the Battle of Nangong came to an end. The Army lost 137 soldiers while the Chinese lost 321 soldiers.

It was also decided that the Province of Qingdao, with its major port, was added to the list of objectives that the HQ of 'China' Operations was to try to take. Or at least TRY to take. This objective was suggested by General Shō-ichi Utsunimiya and the Imperial Japanese Navy. (See Navy War)

It was also noticed that all of the Mountain Divisions and most of the Infantry Divisions under 'China' Operations had finished their upgrading.

Soon the Battle of Hunyuan started as another Militia unit from Shanxi attacked the Province. And failed with the lose of 9 men from their vanguard. The defending Japanese mountain unit lost no one.

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By nightfall the Japanese sent a Infantry Division into the Province of Huairen to take if from the two Shanxi units defending it. One unit was an infantry division and the other was a militia division. It was hoped they would easily be overwhelmed by the better armed and better led Army unit.

It was late afternoon on the 2nd of August before the next battle started. The Japanese launched an attack on the Province of Handan. A Mountain Division against a Chinese Infantry Division.

While this new battle raged the Battle of Siziwang Qi, to the northwest, came to an end. The Army announced it a victory having lost 217. The Shanxi had lost 273 men.

By the morning of the 3rd the mountain unit in Handan finally won the battle. The Army had lost 24 soldiers while the Nationalist had lost 41 soldiers.

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By the evening of the 3rd the Battle of Xinzhou started. Again. As a Shanxi unit tried to invade it and take it away from the defending Japanese mountain unit. And, again, failed. The enemy lost four men while the Army lost two.

Another Battle of Siziwang Qi started as a retreating Shanxi militia unit turned to defend itself against an advancing Japanese cavalry unit. And was soundly beaten as it lost 14 soldiers. The Army lost nobody and, of course, claimed a small victory.

Near midnight on the 4th the Battle of Horinger began as a Army Infantry Division attacked two enemy militia units plus an enemy HQ.

At the same time another Japanese Infantry Division was attacking the Province of Turns Zuoqi. It was defended by one Shanxi militia unit.

An hour later a Japanese Mountain Division attacked a Chinese unit in the Province of Handan. Many believe the battle started because the Chinese were too slow to properly withdraw from the province.

It was assumed the Army would win all the battles in the end.

By the end of the fifth week the Republican units were so thin it was collapsing around them. As for the Shanxi, while putting up a more solid front, they were in danger of losing their nation's Capital to the advancing Japanese.

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For the week the Imperial Japanese Army claimed twelve victories and lost, to Land Combat, 452 soldiers. The Nationalists, during the same period of time, lost 477 soldiers to Land Combat and the Shanxi lost 656 soldiers to Land Combat.

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The Air War​

The Army Air Groups, the 1. Nihon Koukuujieitai and the 3. Nihon Koukuujieitai, continued to launch Ground Attacks on the enemy. They did so without rest. They did so with little to no help from their comrades in the Japanese Fighter Groups.

They started the fifth week with attacks on Yangquan and Hunyuan. The Province of Yangquan was only bombed that once. It was said 64 Shanxi soldiers were killed.

The Province of Hunyuan was bombed a total of four times and a total of 225 Shanxi soldiers were killed.

The Army Air Group that finished their attacks on Yangquan moved to bombing Nangong. The Chinese stationed there were attacked seven times and lost a total of 686 men.

The Bombers from Hunyuan moved to attack the Shanxi in Siziwang Qi. The Shanxi there were attacked eleven times and lost a total of 1,035 men.

By the 2nd of August one of the Air Groups had moved on to bombing the Shanxi in the Province of Huairen. The mixture of enemy infantry and militia had no defense against the bombs dropping on them.

They were attacked by the bombers a total of nine times and lost 719 soldiers.

At this point one of the Air Groups went to bomb the Chinese defenders in Handan. Handan was only attacked once and the Chinese lost a total of 113 men.

At this point many within the government were starting to joke that the Army Air Forces were doing more to win the battles than the ground troops were.

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The Navy War​

The bombing of Nanjing continued, of course, without any interference from Chinese aircraft or anti-aircraft guns. The 1. Hikoutai only lost a plane here or there to technical problems. Of course, these planes were easily repaired or replaced.

During the fifth week the Tactical Bombers launched twenty-four attacks on the city. Bomber crews witnessed hits on the supply and fuel stockpiles. But the Nationalist just kept replacing the loses.

They also reported that the infrastructure was nothing but twisted rails, cratered roads, and ruined bridges. So the supplies and fuel was going nowhere fast.

The flames of the city helped guide the pilots during the night and the pillars of smoke helped guide the pilots during the day. Utsunimiya was starting to feel sorry for the people of Nanjing.

By the 31st of July operation 'Underbelly' had secured all it's objectives and was sending the home islands Chinese metals and coal.

On the 1st of August the Navy decided that next target for invasion would be the Port of Qingdao. It was both a major port and a major urban center. And what was left of the Chinese Navy seemed to be hiding there. This was why it suggested that province as the next objective of the Army. If the Province was threatened by the land side the Nationalist would likely pull out any defenders it had to deal with the threat from the Japanese Army and make it easier to grab. Of course the Navy would ask the Advisers of the Empire to decide if such an operation should be allowed. (See Land War)

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Then the 1st Task Group, on the 2nd of August, found a Chinese Light Cruiser in the Maro Hae Sound. Of course the planes were launched and the warships moved forward to engage. And so the Battle of Maro Mae Sound had begun.

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And ended with the Ping-Hai being sunk. It was attacked twice by the carrier planes but in the end the Kongo-Class Battle Cruiser, the Kirishima, took credit for the kill.

By the end of the fifth week the Navy reported that five enemy convoys had been attacked. At this point many within the government, and among the public, were wondering just how many convoys the Republic had left?

The Imperial Japanese Navy also claimed another Naval Victory AND pointed out that no Japanese convoy had, so far, been threatened by the Chinese military.

Misc. Events​

The Emperor's Cabinet, with the help of the Imperial Advisers, had decided to wait till after the war before creating the military government of Mengkukuo. It was rumored that the advisers had very interesting views on the subject but none of these views were released to the rest of the government or to those in the military.

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On the 2nd of August it was announced that Amelia Earhart had disappeared in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with her navigator Fred Noonan. Few people were surprised as she was not known for being a very GOOD aviator. Funny enough the rumor was that the Japanese had done away with her as she was thought of to be spying for the Americans. But in fact she had been a spy for the Imperial Japanese Navy! And it was likely that the Americans had done something to silence her.

Also on the 2nd of August, which seemed to be a very busy day, the government of Germany once again invited the Empire of Japan to join in the 'Axis' Faction. And once again the Japanese government turned the offer down.

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It was also announced, in the news, that Saudi Arabia was having problems with illegal printing presses funded by European sources. But they decided to ignore the issue as they had bigger problems to deal with.

During the week two trade deals were broken with the Soviet Union, one deal was canceled with the UK, and one offer from Finland was turned down. On the other hand Trade Agreements were made with the USA, Belgium, and Chile. The Imperial government did its best to keep the raw resources pouring into the factories.

By the end of the fifth week the Head of Intelligence reported that the Communist Chinese had captured two agents, the Nationalist Chinese had captured one agent, and the US had captured one agent.
 
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Would the Army start to run out of steam before they could start pushing through the holes?
Survey says...

While this new battle raged the Battle of Siziwang Qi, to the northwest, came to an end. The Army announced it a victory having lost 217. The Shanxi had lost 273 men.

By the morning of the 3rd the mountain unit in Handan finally won the battle. The Army had lost 24 soldiers while the Nationalist had lost 41 soldiers.
...well, it's not conclusive, but the casualty ratios are once again beginning to turn against the IJA as they're clearly reaching the limits of their capabilities. Time to send in the Special Naval Landing Forces boys, I think!

At this point many within the government were starting to joke that the Army Air Forces were doing more to win the battles than the ground troops were.
Ah, yes. You can clearly tell this report is being written by an IJA proponent, because they report these sober-faced discussions as "jokes" and discount the following conclusions that perhaps the ground troops should be disbanded in favor of funding more bombers, which the Navy of course would reluctantly take control of for the good of the Empire.

Utsunimiya was starting to feel sorry for the people of Nanjing.
We'll see how long that feeling lasts.

And ended with the Ping-Hai being sunk. It was attacked twice by the carrier planes but in the end the Kongo-Class Battleship, the Kirishima, took credit for the kill.
Never send a carrier plane to do a battlewagon's job, I always say.

On the 2nd of August it was announced that Amelia Earhart had disappeared in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with her navigator Fred Noonan. Few people were surprised as she was not known for being a very GOOD aviator. Funny enough the rumor was that the Japanese had done away with her as she was thought of to be spying for the Americans. But in fact she had been a spy for the Imperial Japanese Navy! And it was likely that the Americans had done something to silence her.
An...interesting take on the subject. Of course, this report having been produced by an IJA official of questionable competence at best, it should go without saying that the IJN denies these ridiculous allegations and encourages American leadership to continue confiding state secrets to attractive, high-achieving feminist women as this is proven to be an effective, in no way dangerous or insecure way to get them into one's bed. :cool:
 
The Army is doing well enough - against such weak opposition. But will it continue thus as they continue to push further into the interior?
Unfortunately many of the Army's front line units were showing signs of supply issues. Would the Army start to run out of steam before they could start pushing through the holes?
surely this is the Army being slow to reorganise itself after battle, rather than any supply issue? Does their doctrine need improving in that regard?
Never send a carrier plane to do a battlewagon's job, I always say.
The battleship well enough - against such weak opposition. ;) Stricken by the CAGs, the enemy light cruiser was despatched by the Kirishima, rather like a hunting dog going in to retrieve a downed pheasant. Fetch! Good boy! Didn’t seem to need 48” (or whatever caliber it is the SHBBB is advocating these days) guns to do it. Quite enough as it stands.

But if the SHBBB wants to send, say, a battleship and a battle cruiser alone along the Malayan coast in a foray against land and carrier based aircraft in a future war there, I suppose they could try. A good chance it would end in tears, though. :p
 
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The problem with battlewagons is that they are of limited utility when fighting in a continental interior :D
 
The problem with battlewagons is that they are of limited utility when fighting in a continental interior :D

Meh, the SHBBs can dredge their own channel...
 
Meh, the SHBBs can dredge their own channel...
Won’t need to do that at the bottom of the Marianas Trench - plenty deep enough! :p
 
So our much vaunted carriers are unable to sink a single enemy 'light cruiser' despite being given two attempts? And I say light cruiser to be generous, the Ping Hai was tiny, slow, badly armed and obsolete even before she was completed - a strong breeze could have sunk her, yet our CAGs failed to do so. Twice!

If I was a carrier proponent I would have committed sepuku by now due to deep over-riding shame at this miserable failure, or joined the IJA which amounts to the same thing. It is fortunate that wisdom prevailed and the navy retained battleships who can still do the jobs the CAGs are patently unable to (i.e. absolutely everything).

On which note it is obvious the Qingdao operation should go ahead immediately. The Special Naval Landing Forces need no distraction to be successful, they are a proper fighting force not whatever dregs the IJA are using these days.
 
So our much vaunted carriers are unable to sink a single enemy 'light cruiser' despite being given two attempts? And I say light cruiser to be generous, the Ping Hai was tiny, slow, badly armed and obsolete even before she was completed - a strong breeze could have sunk her, yet our CAGs failed to do so. Twice!

If I was a carrier proponent I would have committed sepuku by now due to deep over-riding shame at this miserable failure, or joined the IJA which amounts to the same thing. It is fortunate that wisdom prevailed and the navy retained battleships who can still do the jobs the CAGs are patently unable to (i.e. absolutely everything).

On which note it is obvious the Qingdao operation should go ahead immediately. The Special Naval Landing Forces need no distraction to be successful, they are a proper fighting force not whatever dregs the IJA are using these days.
Sake tampering alert! SHBBB sun-downing again. :( It was clearly ‘winged’ so the battleship could actually catch it. Teamwork. Something that evades those with acute cases of battleship myopia. Or sake-poisoning. :p
 
Teamwork. Something that evades those with acute cases of battleship myopia. Or sake-poisoning. :p
The man who broke the naval truce is in no position to mention teamwork. You bring dishonour on yourself, your clan and the navy. :(
 
The man who broke the naval truce is in no position to mention teamwork. You bring dishonour on yourself, your clan and the navy. :(
Ah, ‘twas not I that broke the truce - the SHBBB could not resist itself. I merely try to maintain equilibrium and advocate cooperation. For some reason, SHBB obsession clouds the judgement of those who should be instead advocating for a strong navy to defend the Empire. Not an unbalanced one that would see it fail. :(
 
Ah, ‘twas not I that broke the truce
*Ahem*. If I may quote your reply to the truce;

We are equals in the Navy - just so long as the SHBB Boys realise the carrier arm is the first among equals. ;):p Oops, can we edit that out? :oops::D

Having been caught so easily, and so quickly, by your own errors, are you sure you are not a member of Japanese Intelligence? ( :D )
 
At this rate the navy will be so riven by infighting the army will end up covering themselves with glory, simply by dint of actually fighting the enemy and not each other.

Be ye a fan of the CV or the BB (especially the SHBB) I urge you to consider the inevitable result of such continued nautical discord.
 
*Ahem*. If I may quote your reply to the truce;



Having been caught so easily, and so quickly, by your own errors, are you sure you are not a member of Japanese Intelligence? ( :D )
:D
 
At this rate the navy will be so riven by infighting the army will end up covering themselves with glory, simply by dint of actually fighting the enemy and not each other.

Be ye a fan of the CV or the BB (especially the SHBB) I urge you to consider the inevitable result of such continued nautical discord.
Sounds very historically plausible to me! :D
 
At this rate the navy will be so riven by infighting the army will end up covering themselves with glory, simply by dint of actually fighting the enemy and not each other.

Be ye a fan of the CV or the BB (especially the SHBB) I urge you to consider the inevitable result of such continued nautical discord.

Well, a squid has a hard time changing its suckers... ;)
 
Chapter Forty-Six: The Qingdao Decision - 4.8.1937
Utsunimiya's War
(HoI3 TFH - Interactive Japan AAR)
Chapter Forty-Six: The Qingdao Decision - 4.8.1937

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Operation 'One Punch'​

Baron Mineo Ōsumi, the Chief of the Navy, looked up from the folder that held the NEWEST plan. "General Shō-ichi Utsunimiya has made a simple and flexible plan. But I am not too sure I like the idea of only using ONE division."

Field Marshal Kanji Ishiwara nodded from behind his desk. His office in the Imperial Japanese Navy General Staff Office had been completely changed to fit his tastes. Only a few wall maps and the massive globe remained to show that the room had once been occupied by a naval officer.

"It is a simple plan," Kanji said. "The island of Taiwan has two infantry divisions stationed there. The plan suggests we load up the 48. Hohei Shidan, with its two infantry regiments and its motorized regiment, into a Task Group at the port of Gaoxiong. The Task Group goes to join the 2nd Navy off the coast of Qingdao."

He leaned forward and said, "Then, instead of just launching an invasion blindly, the carrier planes carry out a Port Strike. This has two goals. Attack and damage what is left of the Chinese Navy. Of course. And to scout out if there are any defending troops. If the port is clear of enemy soldiers the invasion starts."

"And if there are Chinese troops," stated the Baron with a glance at the open folder, "our men stay on their Transport ships while the aircraft blast the enemy ships till they either flee into the hands of the Task Group and the 2nd Navy. OR they are destroyed in the docks."

"It is believed that the Chinese will likely pull out any troops to try to fill the gaps in their battle line with the Imperial Japanese Army," added the Field Marshal. "In fact the Army should start pushing east towards Qingdao anytime now."

"In fact it could be the ports have already been emptied to try to take back Shanghai," stated the Field Marshal with a small smile. "Our reports suggest a LOT of movement on the Chinese mainland. Lots of units heading towards the Special Corps."

"So, in the end the Advisers have THREE choices in the end," murmured the Baron. "First choice is to carry out the operation at once."

"Second choice is to carry it out a week from now," continued the Baron. "Give the Chinese time to pull out any units they may have in the Province of Qingdao."

"And of course the third choice is to not carry out the operation at all," added the Field Marshal. "To be honest I think we should attack now. The first choice. 'One-Punch' would open another front and really cause the Nationalists some headaches. Take the port and we could easily wipe out what was left of the Chinese Navy when it flees right into the arms of our waiting Navy. And when we DO take it we grab a major port to help the Army....when they show up."

The Baron nodded. "So this plan is going to be sent over to the Chief of Staff to be sent to the Advisers?"

"Yes," replied the Field Marshal. "I don't see any of them having an issue with it. Simple plan. Flexible. Hurts the Republic is many ways. And all the glory should go to the Navy."

---

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Within a few hours a dozen small leather packages were being delivered by men who didn't look like they worked for the postal service. They delivered the packages to homes and businesses and tree stumps and empty looking buildings. They were seen by the public but not really noticed. Nobody remembered them. Nobody realized they were armed or government employees. But for a few unseen watchers with tattoos and missing fingers.

From: Hajime Sugiyama (Chief of Staff)
To: ______ _______
Date: 4.8.1937

Dear Sir,

Once again, gentlemen, I write to you with an important decision to be made. Included within this package, along with this letter, is a short summary of a meeting held inside the Imperial General Headquarters.

1. Operation 'One-Punch' Should Be Launched -

A. At Once
B. In A Week
C. Never

I doubt I have to remind you but, once again, please reply as soon as possible. And make sure the information does not fall into the wrong hands.

Signed,

Hajime Sugiyama
 
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There is clearly only one possible answer;
Option D - Operation 'One Punch' should be launched against Tokyo and a division of SNLF landed to clear away the traitorous Army fools who are mid-advising the Emperor and end the abomination of having a Field Marshal anywhere near the Navy Staff.
 
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