Wasn't that only the case in HOI2, haven't been able to confirm it in HOI3.
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Wasn't that only the case in HOI2, haven't been able to confirm it in HOI3.
Hoi2, as far as I know, and even then, it somewhat depends on a country, as for example USSR requires some extra time to upgrade, as you start with artillery on level of china on some divisions of your army, so I prefer to set a 15% on upgrade from the start (its sub-optimal I am aware, but I feel bad for using such ancient artillery on my infantry.)
Chapter Thirty-One : International Affairs And Purchases - 1.1.1937 To 31.1.1937
Utsunimiya's War
(HoI3 TFH - Interactive Japan AAR)
Chapter Thirty-One : International Affairs And Purchases - 1.1.1937 To 31.1.1937
(HoI3 TFH - Interactive Japan AAR)
Chapter Thirty-One : International Affairs And Purchases - 1.1.1937 To 31.1.1937
When General Shō-ichi Utsunimiya came in on the 1st of January, a Friday, he overheard some interesting news from the Naval staff as he went through security. The Foreign Minister had decided that a Coal Export Deal with Belgium was not worth it anymore. He decided to break it. Shortly afterwards Belgium made a trade agreement with Germany.
Utsunimiya could only assume the deal between Belgium and Germany had been about coal.
Of course he found his inbox full of the normal complaints about lack of supplies, requests for more supplies, and reports on supplies shipped. Mostly from 19. Hohei Shidan stationed in Ch'ongjin.
Then on the 2nd of January when he arrived at his office, after hanging up his coat and scarf, there was shocking news waiting for him among the reports in his inbox.
The Head of Intelligence stated that the Soviet Union had started a purge among their upper ranks. In the end, if the rumors were right, up to 4 Marshals, 14 of the Army's Commanders, and 80,000 men in the officer corps would eliminated by Stalin. On top of that the Soviet's Head of Intelligence AND their Minister of Security had disappeared and their positions were empty. For now.
General Shō-ichi Utsunimiya's first thought was that the Imperial Japanese Army didn't have to worry about the Russians for the next year, at least.
A few days later the Chief of the Army seemed very pleased, from what Utsunimiya had heard, about the units under the 'China' Operation's HQ. Seems they had quickly taken to their new weapons and equipment. The new items were much better than some of the ancient rifles and cannons they had used in the last few wars.
A few days later the Army reported that another Chinese unit was leaving the border. General Shō-ichi Utsunimiya wish he knew where they were going!
Then there were rumors coming from the Ministry of Armaments. Very interesting rumors. Rumors that soon became facts. Seems the Army was planning on making Tank Divisions. They wanted the Tank Divisions to be fast on their 'feet'. But there was one problem. Japan had light armour, motorized infantry, and armoured cars. But no Tank Destroyers. Anti-tank guns, yes. Self-propelled anti-tank guns, no. Many of the advisers had suggested looking for better equipment in the military forces of other nations. And their advice was taken!
So the Japanese Foreign Minister had probed the government of Germany for permission to produce Panzer Jagers. And he was told to, in a polite manner, piss off. So he sent out feelers to the USSR and the US of A. But they didn't respond to the feelers.
The Foreign Minister tried one last nation - Italy - and got an agreement for the production of FOUR Brigades of Autocannone 65s. In other words anti-tank guns in the back of trucks. But at least they were self-propelled.
But this was good enough for the Minister of Armaments. On top of the four Brigades, who would be produced in two waves of two, he also put in the order for four NEW Divisions. Each made up of a Jyu-Sokosha (Type 92 light tanks/heavy armoured cars) brigade, a motorized infantry brigade, and a armoured car brigade. Also being produced in waves of two. (1)
Nobody knew who the Tank Divisions were for but it was believed they would likely be handed over to 'China' Operations at first. Such divisions would prove deadly on the mainland against the Chinese forces in future conflicts. After all there were more nations besides the Republic to deal with. And once they gained enough experience they could be sent to the border with the USSR.
By the 23rd of January the Soviet Union was starting to settle down. At least in the government where the positions of the Minister of Security and the Head of Intelligence had finally been filled. But was likely the Red Army would take months to recover. Maybe more.
By the end of the month the Head of Intelligence had to report that the Nationalist Chinese had captured seven Japanese spies, the Americans had captured three spies, the Communist Chinese had captured four spies, and the UK, Denmark, and Mongolia had all captured at least one spy.
---
The Chief of Staff, Hajume Sugiyama, sighed deeply and looked up from the report Chūji Machida had brought him. The Minister of Armaments had come to the Chief of Staff's office with this report instead of passing on the data over the phone.
After a short social interaction, and some green tea, the visitor had presented the Chief with the report. A report that was simple and to the point.
"So not all the upgrades are finished," remarked the Chief.
"Most of those units on the border of China had completed the switch to better weapons and modern equipment," stated Chūji, while giving his glasses a polish with a silk handkerchief, "but a few started out with...well, ancient weapons, and are still need training and time to get use to the new designs."
He placed the glasses carefully back on his nose and added, "We also have warships with the installation of radar stations ALMOST complete and anti-aircraft guns needing a few more days to be properly finished. Crews need to be trained, electronic systems need to be adjusted, and so on."
"So you are asking the advisers to make a choice?" commented the Chief. "And you hope they pick the choice you want so the Navy and Army can't blame you if it turns out to be the wrong one? You DO know our supplies and fuel stocks are in the red?"
The Minister of Armaments chuckled. "What do the Americans say? Teamwork means not having to take all the blame?"
"I am pretty sure they DON'T say that," responded the Chief of Staff with a shake of his head. "So the first choice is to continue for another month with...how much of our industrial capacity in upgrades?"
"65 percent of our factories, dry docks, and laborer are working on the modernization of the military," replied the Minister. "And the rest are producing consumer goods. Toasters, radios, and collector beer mugs."
Chief sighed. "None in supplies, production, or in reinforcements?"
"Not right now," stated the Minister. "We use to produce some supplies but now everything is being used for goods or military upgrades."
"The second choice is to pull back on the upgrades, give reinforcements and supplies which it needs, and try to put as much in production while still keeping the civilians happy?" continued the Chief glancing down to the second choice.
"Maybe 8 to 10 percent of what upgrades are now," commented the Minister with a nod. "Keep things going. Maybe even finish a few projects before the war."
"And the third choice is to go back to the way it was," said the Chief. "Top off reinforcements, top off supplies, keep the consumers happy, and everything else into production," the Chief said. "And to hell with the upgrades. I don't think anybody will like that choice."
"But a choice it is," stated the Minister. "And they have the right to decide on it if they wish."
"Well," murmured the Chief of Staff, "I'll send copies to our advisers. I can't say they will be pleased with the failure to carry out all the upgrades within the two month period. But I understand there are some divisions that need more time to become modernized. We can't always see all the factors in a problem."
---
By the end of the day a dozen leather packages were being delivered to homes and business. Hand delivered to advisers, those who decided the fate of the Empire, those who were true power behind the Japanese government.
From: Hajime Sugiyama (Chief of Staff)
To:____ ____
Date: 31.1.1937
Dear Sir,
As a important member of the government we need your input on the following matter. As we grow closer to the time of the conflict with the Republic of China we also grow closer to the fork in the road. Will our future be that of victory or defeat? Will the Empire lift itself to a position of dominance in Asia? Or will the nation be discarded and be placed in the dust bin of history?
With this letter will come a written record of the meeting held between me and the Minister of Armaments. This information is top secret. Please make sure it does not fall into the wrong hands.
The Decision is as followed -
1. Upgrades -
A. Should we continue as we are for the next month
B. Should Upgrades be kept at 8 to 10 percent while trying to increasing Production as high as we can
C. Should we switch back to increasing Production as high as we can and cease Upgrades
Once I have received your feedback we will act on it right away. And please remember not to let this letter fall into the wrong hands.
Signed,
Hajime Sugiyama
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author's Notes:1. OOC : Damn you Hoi3 and your stupid heavy armoured cars pretending to be tanks!
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Of course, this being HoI3, the Soviets will lose something like three generals and suffer a negligible offer training penalty for a year or so, be hardly effected at all, and still get steamrolled by Germany for six months or so for game balance purposes.
Ah, Italian weapons, almost as good as having no weapons at all!
There's no other rational choice at this point. We must proceed as we are with Option 'A'.
The fact is that we need to get our upgrade situation under control before any start of hostilities in China. Once we've done this, we can maintain a more modest pace of upgrade funding while the war is ongoing to keep our units topped up, but it is imperative that our units be in peak form before the shooting starts.
In the worst case, we may run out of supplies in our stockpile for a couple of weeks, but this is temporary and can be rectified easily in the week or two prior to war being declared. Meanwhile, we are unlikely to produce too many units that will have an immediate impact as it stands, unless we declare war much later than the earliest opportunity...which of course we cannot, war is needed as soon as possible to justify this rate of economic and military mobilization.
A fair curse.
Option A, with a possible exception for one or two of the highest priority production projects you may really want to ensure are finished in time to be used. Give those (if there are any) enough to be produced, the rest kept to upgrades and necessaries.
Same would apply to supply: you will of course start consuming a lot more once hostilities start. Depending on how low your stockpile is and how much you think you’ll need, you may have to put a little into that as well.
so, I guess that means ‘Option A light’, heaviest emphasis on upgrades, but making a few exceptions for vital requirements.
Option B is the only reasonable option, some upgrades will be done (that over a 5-10 year horizon will keep the armed forces at an approximately reasonable level of state of the art) but production of important stuff (like CV's) will not be hindered.
I would provisionally say B, so long as we can ensure the upgrades we do enable are prioritised for the front-line units. Any units along the Russian border - well given the likely state of the Russian army new equipment there seems to be a lower priority.
Yet another showing of IJA incompetence... Buying TD's from Italy,... Italy.
Also, what you need tank divisions for remains a mystery to me. Just draw enemy forces to the coast, and destroy their armour with Battleship-calibre naval gunfire. I'm dismayed that the production of Tank Divisions, and especially Italian-designed TDs was give priority over the SHBB programme we so desperately need.I'd like to vote for option D. Halt all updates to the IJA, continue updates for the navy, produce all the supplies that are needed, and put the rest into production, with a priority for Navy production, preferably by laying down a pair of Yamato-class SHBBs to get some big gun platforms in the water. The Army will do just as badly with modern weapons as with ancient ones, whilst the navy will greatly benefit from radar, fire control systems, and the development of multi-purpose 20" main armament for SHBBs. (so we can put more 20" guns on the same platform, eliminate dedicated AA, and swat aeroplanes out of the sky with the main guns.)
You know where I stand,
Captain RobaS3,
Wondering what the point of army upgrades is.
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Utsunimiya should go and take a long hard look at himself in the mirror if he really thinks Belgian coal trade deals are interesting. This was clearly the Naval Staff administering a test of his critical faculties and judgement, one which he has failed badly, as one would expect from a Army Officer.
If feels churlish to point out that the Foreign Ministry has brought an absolute pup here. But the greater needs of the nation compel me, so I shall.
The Foreign Minister tried one last nation - Italy - and got an agreement for the production of FOUR Brigades of Autocannone 65s. In other words anti-tank guns in the back of trucks. But at least they were self-propelled.
That is a picture of an Italian 65/17 mountain gun badly nailed to the back of British Morris CS8 truck. Leaving aside the mystery of how on earth the Italians have got their hands on an British truck that hasn't been invented yet, the 65/17 was a pre-Great War gun designed for use in the Alps and fires a large shell, fairly slowly, not very often. Not 100% ideal for anti-tank work even on a fixed base, but in that installation it is a recipe for disaster.
I too vote for Option D for the reasons Captain RobsaS3 outlines and because the debacle above proves the Army should not be allowed near the budget until they apologise for the anti-tank truck disaster, have the correct people commit ritual suicide and acknowledge the IJN should have utter budget and industrial priority over the Amy at all times.
In light of the points raised, I too would like to revise my earlier assessment to Option D.
Priceless!Yet another showing of IJA incompetence... Buying TD's from Italy,... Italy.
I'd like to vote for option D. Halt all updates to the IJA, continue updates for the navy, produce all the supplies that are needed, and put the rest into production, with a priority for Navy production, preferably by laying down a pair of Yamato-class SHBBs to get some big gun platforms in the water. The Army will do just as badly with modern weapons as with ancient ones, whilst the navy will greatly benefit from radar, fire control systems, and the development of multi-purpose 20" main armament for SHBBs. (so we can put more 20" guns on the same platform, eliminate dedicated AA, and swat aeroplanes out of the sky with the main guns.)
You know where I stand,
Captain RobaS3,
Wondering what the point of army upgrades is.
But the Italian ‘TDs’ look ahead of their time - like a ‘Technical’ with a recoilless rifle mounted on it. Plenty of them being used in Africa to this day
Chapter Thirty-Two : An Invalid Choice - 1.2.1937 To 2.2.1937
Utsunimiya's War
(HoI3 TFH - Interactive Japan AAR)
Chapter Thirty-Two : An Invalid Choice - 1.2.1937 To 2.2.1937
(HoI3 TFH - Interactive Japan AAR)
Chapter Thirty-Two : An Invalid Choice - 1.2.1937 To 2.2.1937
Chūji Machida looked at the Chief of Staff with a confused look and said, "A fourth choice? WHAT are you talking about?"
Hajime Sugiyama sighed and slid a piece of paper across the Minister of Armament's desk. "It seems that more than 50 percent of the advisers wants all the resources put into making massive super-battleships."
"That's not even a choice!" remarked the Minister as he picked up the paper and looked it over. "Who the heck would demand we make super-battleships when we can't? We don't even have the technology to make the technology to make the technology to make massive battleships. Nor the resources. We're not the United States. Who voted for such nonsense?"
"I assume," replied the Chief of Staff, "that many of our advisers are pro-Battleship ex-Naval officers. OR Naval supporters."
"HA! A bunch of traditionalists?" replied Chūji with a smile. "You need younger advisers. Anyway, that wasn't a option so their votes are invalid. What is the result when you remove their votes?"
"Well, it was going to be a tie between continuing as is or switching to 8 percent upgrades but a adviser changed his mind. So it is the second choice."
Chūji leaned back in his chair, pulled off his glasses, and started to clean them. "The 8 percent or so upgrade choice, eh? Well, many of the Army divisions on the border have not totally upgraded yet. And there are many ships still working on their radar and anti-aircraft guns. Then there is the aircraft still being worked on."
He thought for a few seconds and then continued. "Some of them HAVE finished and I can redirect resources and laborer to where it is needed. Still, a lot of officers in both branches will be upset. But if that's the final decision I will have to go with it. Unless you wish to ask them to vote again?"
"No," replied Hajime, his voice heavy with disappointment, "I think we will work with the results we have. Anyway, it's not like we live in a democracy."
Chūji returned his glasses to his nose. "And how will you deal with the Navy? If they have so many supporters they may be not be reasonable about the new production policy."
"I have an idea about that," answered Hajime with a knowing smile.
---
The Province of Sasebo
General Shō-ichi Utsunimiya entered Field Marshal Kanji Ishiwara's office with a bow and walked over to one of the chairs to sit down.
"Morning Sir," said Utsunimiya with nod of his head, "you wished to see me?"
"Yes," said Kanji. He nodded towards the phone on his desk. "I just finished talking to the Chief of Staff. He is worried that your Special Corps, being stationed in Tokyo, are not in the best staging area for an invasion of China. He would like you to be closer."
The Field Marshal stood up, walked over to one of the remaining maps of Japan on the wall, and pointed towards the port of Sasebo. "The Province of Sasebo on the island of Kyushu. The 3rd Task Force, under Admiral Koga, is stationed there. BUT the port can easily handle twice that many ships."
He turned to face Utsunimiya and continued. "Admiral Yamamoto, and the 1st Task Group, will transport you to the province AND rebase themselves at the port. This will put you BOTH closer to Chinese waters and the target area of Operation 'Underbelly'. I agree with the Chief of Staff that this would be to our advantage once the conflict started."
Amazingly enough the transfer of the 1st Task Group, and the Tokusku Gudan, took just a little more than 36 hours. By noon of the 2nd of February Utsunimiya's Divisions were unloading their equipment and supplies onto the docks of the port of Sasebo.
Only certain high-ranking officials within the military and government knew the secondary nature of the move. Now those in the capital could continue to run the nation without the threat of the big guns of the Navy hanging over them.
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When the only proposed options are biased in favour of the Army and Carrier development, the only respectable option becomes to propose a fourth alternative.
Now to the point of the SHBB. Why don't we have the technology to build SHBBs? Do you mean to say that no Battleship development has happened for more than a year now? That is some serious mismanagement, and only reinforces the point I previously made about the dangerous reduction in Naval design and research staff. The Minister is right... we are not the USA. We cannot pump out the same number of Battleships. To beat them, we have to focus on quality, and on packing as much firepower on each individual ship. Build bigger and better than anything they come up with. As for the lack of resources... really, that's the best the Minister can come up with? The Army gets resources to produce several Tank Divisions, including Italian Tank Destroyers, and the navy can't get a single Battleship laid down? What's even the point of building all those flat-tops when there are no Battleships for them to provide air cover for?
The final phrase: 'who voted for such nonsense' shows a profound lack of respect for the veterans of the battle of Tsushima.
One final point.
With the sailors in Sasebo, who's going to bail you out when their is another uprising. It's not like the army managed on it's own last time around.
This is a sad day for the homeland,
Captain RobaS3,
Furious his proposals were ridiculed and discarded without any real consideration.
Worried about what his beloved IJN is being turned into. Did they learn nothing from Tsushima?
I believe that Lord El Pip, if no one else, has been working on procuring such advisors. Of course, this being Lord El Pip, one expects less "advice" and more "technically correct, the best kind of correct", but this can hardly be helped.
Well, more accurately we can say that the anti-navy idiots in the capital now know that they have at most 36 hours to make their escape before the big guns of the navy can reach them and blow them to smithereens.
And I must also echo the points raised by the estimable Captain RobaS3. This nonsensical idea to halt all battleship development in favor of...what? Smoke-belching, unreliable, metal monstrosities so imaginatively called "tanks" that are more likely to get lost in the vast Chinese terrain than to actually kill anything? What is this, Slovakia?! Anyways, the point is, we must rectify this lack of serious consideration for the battleship program immediately, perhaps by time-traveling back to 1 Jan 1936, killing Utsunimiya, and starting over with a right proper Navy man in charge of things. Short of such a drastic resort, I fail to see how this ship can be righted in time, pun intended.
It is disappointing and concerning. But then what can one expect from Army idiots who can't even buy a tank destroyer without catastrophically cocking it up and shaming themselves and the homeland?
Careful analysis reveals the current advisors are entirely correct and we should actually procure a new government. Because the current government clearly consist of traitorous fools who I strongly suspect are unable to carry out a simple tea ceremony without spilling it all over their hakama.I believe that Lord El Pip, if no one else, has been working on procuring such advisors. Of course, this being Lord El Pip, one expects less "advice" and more "technically correct, the best kind of correct", but this can hardly be helped.
Sadly that would be an improvement.
It may be drastic, but it is the only sensible option.
I very much enjoyed the howls of the Big Battleship Lobby as their unrealistic plans were torpedoed. Much the same way their SHBBs were likely to be, by enemy CAGs before they ever got in range to shoot at another ship, if we were foolhardy and dinosaurian enough to ever build them.
Then again, perhaps one should build one (only) just to keep them quiet. As a test of concept. They could all be made observers on it as part of the crew in its first voyage against a real navy. You won’t get much complaining from them after that. Water conducts sound very well, it’s true, but they would find it hard to be heard from the bottom of the Marianas Trench, or wherever they end up.
You could call the ship whatever Japanese is for ‘Cretaceous’ (probably Cretaceous) - signifying the next great extinction event for lumbering behemoths that were no longer the apex predators they used to be. More carriers, escorts and NAV. And maybe some decent subs, too. Good infantry equipment and doctrine. Supply techs. Decent fighters. That should do us.
Then again, perhaps one should build one (only) just to keep them quiet. As a test of concept. They could all be made observers on it as part of the crew in its first voyage against a real navy. You won’t get much complaining from them after that. Water conducts sound very well, it’s true, but they would find it hard to be heard from the bottom of the Marianas Trench, or wherever they end up.
You could call the ship whatever Japanese is for ‘Cretaceous’ (probably Cretaceous
) - signifying the next great extinction event for lumbering behemoths that were no longer the apex predators they used to be. More carriers, escorts and NAV. And maybe some decent subs, too. Good infantry equipment and doctrine. Supply techs. Decent fighters. That should do us.
I believe you have this confused with the Italian AAR a bit up the page.
Here, of course, the action is controlled by insane readAARs and a human authAAR who aims to please, and such as opposed to the AI for which seeing the Japanese navy sinking in the mid-Atlantic would be entirely normal, in this case it is not insane enough.
As far as I remember there are more factions in both army and fleet. Army has lets banzai all we see, lets kill reds, lets kill Chinese, lets take over the oil. Fleet has at least super-BB and super-CV and possible also the super-Sub factions, in addition to the same factions the army has. How much was this directed by the Zaibatsu's, is an open question, did Mitsui own the army and Mitsubishi the navy? The Yasuda finacial supermarket greased the wheels or Sumitomo's mining affect foreign politics.
That could explain some of the crazy decisions the AIs make. It’s not a fault with the game engine or dubious research: more an accurate representation of RL financial and factional craziness.