Utopian Socialists?

[Xyrix]

I was wondering; how is Vichy is going to represent the pre-marxist socialist movements that nearly seized power in 1848? Given Paradox's (understandable) choice to only use Proletarian Dictatiorship for communist countries, I'm not sure if it would be for communes/revolutionary governments to be represented as very free + open Proletarian states or for them to be represented as highly leftist dmeocracies. Of course, thaey might be best represented as rebels caused by events that also pust nations into social change, which though it precludes rabdomly arrising global revolution probably is closest to the histroical impact of such movements. Of course, I wouldn't have to ask if we could only get one little reovlutionary AAR

 

[unmerged(10416)]

Sorry, but those movements were, as you correctly said, _utopian_ socialist movements. They didn't last long, and expecting a commune on a national scale to work is like asking for the easter bunny to repair your bike. Proletarian Dictatorship fits the leftist-revolutionary slot quite nicely.

And BTW... in what countries apart from France did socialists play a role in 1848???

 

[Grosshaus]

A democracy lead by social democrats would perhaps be your milder version of socialism?

 

[unmerged(10426)]

Well, as they didn't actually ever seize power nationally - like The Paris students of 1968 - they don't have to be represented on a governmnetal level. The question of how 1848 will be represented generally is an interesting one, though. I assume either by a global event or a set of events.


I am bit worried about this 'Proletarian Dictatorship' business, though. I think 'Marxist Dictatorship' or something similar would be a better term. the later Marxist movements may have had support from the workers, but their leaderships invariably had no intention of real proletarian involement in the revolutionary and post-revolutionary leadership.

Leaders may have come from the wroking classes - like Stalin, etc, but this was because of their revolutionary and oranisational skills, etc - not because they were a proletarian.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

I think Proletarian Dictatorship is meant to cover any form of quasi-socialist revolutionary government, like the Paris Commune, or the early Bolshevik government under Lenin, Trotzky et al.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

There should probably be a "left wing radical" gov't type in Victoria (as in HoI) so we can adequately model states like the Zapatistas, the Makhnovists, and the Paris Communards. Arguably, anarchism is just as important as communism in the Victoria time period.

 

[unmerged(8860)]

Who would really want a "utopian socialist state" in the game? In the libertarian sense. Personally I might be categorized as one, but I do not think it could work in game play terms.

The classical form of libertarian socialism means local self-government and abolition of private power; i.e no real governing class. In the game, the prerequisite is that you take the roll of the all-powerful head of state. This will not be very practical.

"The government has commanded that anyone that, like, you know, feel like taking up arms and defending our homeland does so!"

 

[unmerged(17303)]

wouldn't a name like "Proletarian Dictatorship" also include self-branded "Socialists" like Mussolini, who only introduced Nationalism?

He was more of a true Socialist than Stalin.. minus the capitalism and all

 

[unmerged(8617)]

Originally posted by Kensai
libertarian socialism

That's always sounded like quite an oxymoron to me

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Originally posted by Friedrich II
wouldn't a name like "Proletarian Dictatorship" also include self-branded "Socialists" like Mussolini, who only introduced Nationalism?

He was more of a true Socialist than Stalin.. minus the capitalism and all

I find this quite ironic, since Mussolini did indeed begin his political career as a Socialist (until World War One, where he sort of switched sides and became a nationalistic ultra-right wing militarist, aka Fascist).

But I don't think you can call any of the later Fascist regimes "proletarian" in nature.

What I really meant is, that this form of government probably covers all of the left-wing revolutionary movements in the time frame (i.e. Anarchism, Utopian Socs, Marxists...).

 

[unmerged(17303)]

Yes, I meant Pre-War Mussolini, not "Il Duce", Hitler's Puppet.

He was a socialist at the time, the only reason he created Fascism was that the Communist party in Italy was against going to war with Germany, while he thought it would be good for Italy.

"Proletarian Dictatorship" does not mean Pro or Against war, so would that not include a warmonger socialist like him?