Utopia wonders too late to matter.

[Erei]

I've played 2 empires in Utopia, and 1 still being played. So far, I find the wonders being way too late to actually matter, or in fact, to be worth building.

First, you need 3 unity perks. Which may take a while. Then you need a rare perk, which is late game and completely random. In short it may also take forever (apparently it's faster if you conquer a ring world, but then, why would you want to build one ?). With my full synth civ, playing tall (small penalties to tech) and MASSIVE tech boost (95% bonus per, the research is unreal compared to my militaristic empire).

And then they simply take forever, even if you have the resources (which is harder with Utopia). You can take a 4th perk to help with that.


I just unlocked the ringworld with my first empire, and started to build one. But I already beaten 3/4FE (one awakened), and the crisis should hit soon. Only one federation of 3 small state remain independent. I have "won" the domination victory a while ago. And most tech are repeat or low level weapons I don't want (like missiles).
In short, I'm more or less done with this game.


This is a big issue IMO. Voidborn's habitat, ironically, are rather fine, a bit on the "late" stage though, but for a tall empire it's fine. The wonders ? WAY too late. Their bonus will not matter at all, why would I care about a ringworld when I have 16 worlds and already a ringworld ? Why would I care for a pathetic 50 tech resources when I have the majority of the techs unlocked ? Why would I care building something when I'm done playing anyway because there is nothing else to do ?

 

[legionof1]

Habitats good, ringworld and the wonders kinda meh. Single player only multiples the problem. Any halfway decent player has already "won" well before the victory screen.

Multiplayer against human opposition can make the game last a sufficient amount for there to be some value. That said the sentry array is the most useful of the bunch because information from standard sensors is lacking at best.

 

[Erei]

Habitats good, ringworld and the wonders kinda meh. Single player only multiples the problem. Any halfway decent player has already "won" well before the victory screen.

Pretty much yes. They should come MUCH sooner in the game. Push the other empire/yourself to fight and give us a mid game goal.

 

[Alkaid98]

I pretty much had the same case in my first Utopia game. I had a good start was in a clear winning position over the other regular empires already by about 2300. I finally got the mega engineering tech around then and by the time I'd build the science nexus as my first megastructure, I'd beaten a regular fallen empire and an awakened one. I started the sentry array next and had beaten the Unbidden that showed up before it finished. Trying to go for a ringworld/dyson spehere next and beyond would just be letting the game run until they finished since there was nothing left to really do.

Thematically it makes sense your empire wouldn't be able to build things iike that for long while, and when they do they take a long time to complete. But in relation to the actual gameplay and pace at which things happen, you won't even have much time to actually utilize your shiny new megastructures before you've already won or at least "won" your campaign.

I only built 1 habitat that game to check it out, since I already had a lot of good planets available that game, but I agree they seem to come about at a more reasonable time if you're aiming for them. Though I feel they could come sooner too if they're really going to help playing tall.

 

[Meneliki]

Well, if your'e on a large/huge galaxy and focus on unity, you can hit those high lvl wonders while they still matter. I'm building my own dyson sphere crazy late, but once it hits is gonna give me the energy to support my full naval cap and that's when shit's gonna get real. So I think they're relatively well paced. It's a fine balacing act - any later and they'd be pointless, any earlier and the'd be OP.

As a fanatic purifier, i have no access to trade or enclaves for energy income. So even in the late game, a Dyson Sphere is a huge deal. I MUST maintain a HUGE fleet, or I'm gonna get crushed. I CANT maintain a huge fleet without a stupid amount of energy. So in a wierd way, the Dyson Sphere is perfectly paced. It's gonna hit right when I need it. And when it does, my fleet power will probably triple, which is what i need to ensure I remain the dominant force.

Energy is the *real* naval cap in Stellaris, imo.

 

[Person012345]

By the way, I think they're intended to take steps towards allowing "tall" empires so yes, if you go conquering and have some big sprawling empire with plenty of access to all the planets you need to be a galactic superpower relatively quickly then your unity costs will be sky high and you probably won't get a chance to use the structures before they're largely irrelevant. But if you remain a relatively local power, in a federation and not focusing on conquering the galaxy then I'm sure they have more utility once your available space starts running out.

Edit: Not to say they shouldn't be rebalanced mind you, certainly I can see that some tweaks may need to be made.

 

[airpirate]

I agree that all the big wonders come way too late to be useful, but the one I really don't get is the Science Station. Ring Worlds and Dyson Spheres (useless as the sphere is compared to habitats) have a cool factor, the Sensor Station is handy, but the Science Station seems useless. You basically need maxed out tech to get the wonders, so why would I want to put a huge amount of resources into a wonder that's just gonna get me repeatable techs a few months faster?

I like habitats though. Good at providing energy and their tech building is good enough to mitigate the population malus if you stack a few labs in with the solar panels. Good cost and construction time too. Small enough to be practical but large enough to not be spammable.

 

[mvm900]

Surely habitats or some of these can come a bit earlier? I was expecting to be building tons of stuff in space now and frankly I've got really nothing.

I must be missing something because it doesn't seem like I can build tall at all, really.

 

[legionof1]

They did make a step in the right direction but "tall" still can't manufacture a win alone. A "tall" member of an all player federation is about the only way. Federation with an AI and a player present is utterly incompetent due to control bugs.

They missed the real problem of playing tall. There are no tall tailored victory conditions. Conquest and massive expansion is mandatory, there is no alternative. At best you can win by proxies while remaining largely peaceful. Unlike other 4x titles stellaris has nothing like an economic, tech, or social victory. War is the only way.

 

[Erei]

By the way, I think they're intended to take steps towards allowing "tall" empires so yes, if you go conquering and have some big sprawling empire with plenty of access to all the planets you need to be a galactic superpower relatively quickly then your unity costs will be sky high and you probably won't get a chance to use the structures before they're largely irrelevant. But if you remain a relatively local power, in a federation and not focusing on conquering the galaxy then I'm sure they have more utility once your available space starts running out.

Edit: Not to say they shouldn't be rebalanced mind you, certainly I can see that some tweaks may need to be made.

My second empire was a tall empire. I struggled just the same than before Utopia, and I'm still unable to have the Ringworld tech, so no wonders, despite having the perk slot (the tech is not poping, apparently it's a 50% chance over repeatable tech at this point, with my bonuses, according to someone on steam). Not that it matters much, considering I have nothing to do.

Also, having ALL the super structures for tall empire, a non regular way to play seems a bit much.

Surely habitats or some of these can come a bit earlier? I was expecting to be building tons of stuff in space now and frankly I've got really nothing.

I must be missing something because it doesn't seem like I can build tall at all, really.

I think habitats are fine. They come rather soon because they don't need as much. You need the fortress tech though. I know in my first empire I had them late because of that, I never research fortresses.

They did make a step in the right direction but "tall" still can't manufacture a win alone. A "tall" member of an all player federation is about the only way. Federation with an AI and a player present is utterly incompetent due to control bugs.

They missed the real problem of playing tall. There are no tall tailored victory conditions. Conquest and massive expansion is mandatory, there is no alternative. At best you can win by proxies while remaining largely peaceful. Unlike other 4x titles stellaris has nothing like an economic, tech, or social victory. War is the only way.

I did a "tall" gameplay, and yeah, even with utopia it's still a struggle. Less resources, much less naval cap, less of everything but tech/unity. None of it being a game changer. At the same date (2334 vs 2360), between my tech focused tall empire and my militarist wide, the differences are massive.
Fleet power : 137K (half the cap !!!) vs 50K (all the cap research, slightly overcap).
Production : e292/m 498 (full synth civ, so almost no food production except for paradise dome) vs e1.4k/m831

Sure, 30years before and my tech is leagues away. but everything else is largely behind.

Well, if your'e on a large/huge galaxy and focus on unity, you can hit those high lvl wonders while they still matter. I'm building my own dyson sphere crazy late, but once it hits is gonna give me the energy to support my full naval cap and that's when shit's gonna get real. So I think they're relatively well paced. It's a fine balacing act - any later and they'd be pointless, any earlier and the'd be OP.

As a fanatic purifier, i have no access to trade or enclaves for energy income. So even in the late game, a Dyson Sphere is a huge deal. I MUST maintain a HUGE fleet, or I'm gonna get crushed. I CANT maintain a huge fleet without a stupid amount of energy. So in a wierd way, the Dyson Sphere is perfectly paced. It's gonna hit right when I need it. And when it does, my fleet power will probably triple, which is what i need to ensure I remain the dominant force.

Energy is the *real* naval cap in Stellaris, imo.

What's the point ? Sure I could double my fleet cap. But I can already handle awakened empires and crisis. So, what's the point ? Bigger numbers ?
Energy is a struggle until you realize you need to focus on it early on. Afterwards it's easy. Minerals have been nerfed massively it seems though.

I'm have 137k fleet power right now (half the cap). 1.4k energy output. Needless to say I can safely continue building up my fleet. And I don't need a dyson sphere. I would have had a need of it earlier on, before I took over the FE and their absurd numbers for production.

 

[mvm900]

Neither did I, and as such I literally flew by them without knowing how to get them but again, I think they could be a *little* earlier.

 

[Meneliki]

What's the point ? Sure I could double my fleet cap. But I can already handle awakened empires and crisis. So, what's the point ? Bigger numbers ?

In that situation, then yeah there is no point. But if that's your situation, why is your game still running? You should've crushed everyone by now. Go kill everyone and end the game. GG.

In my situation, despite the fact that I control half of the 1000 star galaxy and the majority of my planetside infrastructure is power plants/grids etc.. I still go negative as soon as I undock my fleet. Yes, I have the largest fleet in the galaxy at about 130k, but I want more. I'm a fanatic purifier, having a bigger fleet isn't good enough. I want an *overwhelming* fleet, with the energy production to back it up. I want to split my fleet up and attack/defend on multiple fronts, and still crush with ease. For that, a Dyson Sphere is perfect in my situation.

 

[Erei]

In that situation, then yeah there is no point. But if that's your situation, why is your game still running? You should've crushed everyone by now. Go kill everyone and end the game. GG.

My point. I won (basically). I just unlocked the megastructure.

Also, I'd like them to be a part of the galactic politic. Something empires would go to war for, or willing to protect. Basically, the trailer.

Right now, they are merely a very endgame goal you can do when you are bored, or situationally useful in the very late game, like for your game.

 

[Meneliki]

Also, I'd like them to be a part of the galactic politic. Something empires would go to war for, or willing to protect.

I'm not 100% sure on the mechanics behind this just yet, but I think they might be...

Spoiler: SPOILER

Making a Dyson Sphere seems to have a high probability of pissing off some random empire. (I would assume making the other megastructures also trigger a similar script) If that random empire happens to be stronger than you, and/or aggressive, I wouldn't be surprised to see wars break out over it. But the system is young, I'd be interested in hearing some AAR's about this.

 

[Meathim]

They did make a step in the right direction but "tall" still can't manufacture a win alone. A "tall" member of an all player federation is about the only way. Federation with an AI and a player present is utterly incompetent due to control bugs.

They missed the real problem of playing tall. There are no tall tailored victory conditions. Conquest and massive expansion is mandatory, there is no alternative. At best you can win by proxies while remaining largely peaceful. Unlike other 4x titles stellaris has nothing like an economic, tech, or social victory. War is the only way.

Aye this is a problem. The argument could me made that you can do a RP victory however you choose, but it is much less possible in this game than it is in other PDX titles which has end dates. OTOH, what would the other kinds of victories be? I honestly can't think of anything fitting from the top of my head.

 

[TempusxX]

I also have to ask why are you still playing when you can already handle crisis and awakened empires, why not just end everything and quite and start over. Also why not build all of the megastructures because you can

 

[HallBregg]

It would be cool to have a victory point system. You could get Victory points for having X amout of planets, Y amout of techs, megastructures, achieving ascention paths etc. The first player who gets a predetermined amount of points (to be set in the game setting screen) wins.

 

[Cubia_]

I had the same problem in my MP game with a friend. Year 2355, defeated the unbidden, toppled a few empires, have the fleet strength to topple the friendly awakened fallen empire, all but 2 unity perks taken, psionically ascended a LONG time ago, and the engineering tech for getting the other megastructures just finished. I haven't even picked the trait for getting either megastructure set yet because they just unlocked. If either me or my friend weren't playing passively this whole time, the game would literally be over. Habitats proved themselves useful, but I only ever built 4 (and I wouldn't have really needed any if either of us was aggressive).
Yes, building a ringworld will be cool if I do it, but I honestly don't know if I will. Same deal with the dyson sphere and science nexus. (Not building sensor array so I don't perma-lag an MP game)

What should really be happening is I should be looking at my ascension perks and going "Oh damn I have to choose between megastructures, ringwords, and psionic ascension right now. I have to pause and think about this for a minute. What's the best for my empire right now?" and not "yup, ascend psionically on 4. Ringworlds if the tech show up ever. Build some habitats if I'm capped on fleet and I don't know what to do with the minerals."

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

The problem is the wonders are a means to an end that doesn't exist (yet?)

 

[DukeLeto42]

The problem is the wonders are a means to an end that doesn't exist (yet?)

At this point, basically the goal is rp or achievements. I'm running a fanatic purifiers on a huge galaxy, planning to get "suffer not the alien," and while I'm holding my own, megastructures will make taking in the large federation and the crisis / AFE much more manageable (once they arrive).

If crises were more long-term threats, along with AFEs, I think these perks would be important for that necessary edge.