USSR vs USA 1941 who wins?

[tristanjay]

I was just thinking that Nazi Germany was incapable of crushing the soviet union, I was just wondering if the USA had enough resources to accomplish what Nazi Germany couldnt. Would American forces be stopped at Moscow and crushed? Would America be able to crush Russia? I assume America wouldn't focus so much on a navy and more on an army if they bordered the USSR. A fight between USA and USSR in 1941 without land borders would be a pointless what if because the US Navy would make it a stalemate at best.

 

[Director]

I can't imagine what they would fight over, or where.

 

[DoomBunny]

I was just thinking that Nazi Germany was incapable of crushing the soviet union, I was just wondering if the USA had enough resources to accomplish what Nazi Germany couldnt. Would American forces be stopped at Moscow and crushed? Would America be able to crush Russia? I assume America wouldn't focus so much on a navy and more on an army if they bordered the USSR. A fight between USA and USSR in 1941 without land borders would be a pointless what if because the US Navy would make it a stalemate at best.

So essentially; Was the USA more powerful than Germany?

Yes. In every conceivable way, save willpower, yes.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

A good way to visualize this question would be, what if the continental United States switched positions on the globe with western and Central Europe, then how would a war go?

I think the United States just has too much of a production advantage, if they have time to work up that industry. Of course there would be the American people to placate, whilst the authoritarian Soviet government would have less to worry about thanks to their media controls and or propaganda.

 

[BBBD316]

Surely the easiest and most possible way they come to blows is simple.

Hitler is informed by the Abwehr in early 1941 that the estimates of the current Red Army and their ability to mobilise has been vastly underrated. Hitler seeing sense realises that Barbarossa is not going to work and finalises a formal alliance with Stalin in mid-1941 setting up a new pact with themselves Italy and Japan. Russia is to provide support in the Middle East and threaten India, it is also to supsend all aid to China and provide bombing missions along their border.

Japan still proceeds with Pearl Harbour and Russia joins Germany in declaring war on the US. Who wins?

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

^^ In the scenario above, an unholy alliance between Germany and the USSR means that the better part of the Eurasian landmass is going to be under totalitarian control until domestic issues cause the alliance to crumble/tear itself apart.

If hitler and Stalin can set aside their differences(veeeeery unlikely for hurler btw), than there isn't much the allies can do.. Starving Germany with a blockade isn't going to be very effective if the Germans are trading with the Soviets. Although in this situation Germany would slowly but surly become the junior member of the alliance, do to strategic and economic factors, I don't see this boding well for nazi leadership long term.

 

[nerd]

^^ In the scenario above, an unholy alliance between Germany and the USSR means that the better part of the Eurasian landmass is going to be under totalitarian control until domestic issues cause the alliance to crumble/tear itself apart.

If hitler and Stalin can set aside their differences(veeeeery unlikely for hurler btw), than there isn't much the allies can do.. Starving Germany with a blockade isn't going to be very effective if the Germans are trading with the Soviets. Although in this situation Germany would slowly but surly become the junior member of the alliance, do to strategic and economic factors, I don't see this boding well for nazi leadership long term.

I disagree.
Given this scenario, Russia would slowly become German, as Germany had far more industry and food, if Allied bombing doesn't happen and there is no lend-lease.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

I disagree.
Given this scenario, Russia would slowly become German, as Germany had far more industry and food, if Allied bombing doesn't happen and there is no lend-lease.

The problem with this for Germany, is she didn't have the hard currency to import the goods needed from the USSR, and instead had to trade specialized machine tools and specialist industrial 'know how' to pay for the imports. The Soviets historically used these tools and techniques to modernize their economy thereby closing the technical gap between these nations.

For the Germans this is not a sustainable way to fuel their economy and maintain a technical lead over the Russians.

The Germans knew since pre WWI, that time was on the Russians' side, the USSR was only going to get more powerful in relation to Germany. The outcome of the world wars proved this to be true btw.

The plunder from Western Europe helped the Germans in this regard, but that was really only an intern solution.

 

[keynes2.0]

Germany currently has a higher GDP then Russia. Time turned out to be on Germany's side despite Germany trying to prevent this with shit handed diplomacy.

 

[BBBD316]

Well I suppose in this situation it would depend on how long the UK would hold out.

Now the issue is Putin is the one using SHD not the Germans.

 

[SorelusImperion]

Germany currently has a higher GDP then Russia. Time turned out to be on Germany's side despite Germany trying to prevent this with shit handed diplomacy.

The reason for that developement may have to do with the fact that unlike the Soviet Union the Western German state would enjoy US support and didn't have to bancrupt itself with an oversized Military Budget.

During the Nazi rule the Situation was quite different. Germany was blockaded and thus to a significant degree dependent on trade with the USSR which in turn got much more favourable conditions for such trade.

 

[yerm]

Are we talking literally in 1941? Yeah, at that point, they're blockaded and cut off. If we're talking about pre-WWI when the sentiment that time was on Russia's side came up, or maybe in the early 30s when the anti-Slavic rhetoric was frothing out, no, and furthermore post-WWI Germany was pretty much the very definition of a state "unencumbered" by a military budget, at least until the Nazis took power and changed that situation deliberately.

 

[SorelusImperion]

We are talking "literally" 1941 yes because the posts excplicitely mentione the war conditions such as the Blockade for example. And after all the variable we discuss is not wether Hitler starts his war or not but if he and Stalin can manage to cooperate. German - Soviet cooperation can buy time for Germany, perhaps enough to win the war against the UK but it is unsustainable in the long term if Germany can't force the UK into a somewhat favourable peace.

Even taking into account the pre WW1 conditions into account the Statement would be a plausible projection of Russias future developement under the assumptionthat Germany trades with Russia and keeps the peace instead of fighting it. WW1 and the Civil War that followd just like the 2nd World war were a great setback for Russia and it took a long time just to get back to the Tsarist Level of industrialisation. Russias developement if WW1 would not have happened would be largely dependent on wether or not it manages to retain some political stability and somehow keep up the modernization and industrialization processes.

Germany after World War 1 while not having a powerfull expensive Military to remain had to shoulder the burden of the reparations and was (like the USSR) an international Pariah.
Who benefited more from the German - Soviet cooperation during the Weimar era is debatable but the position that it helped the USSR more than Germany is a reasonable one even for that period of time.

 

[yerm]

We are talking "literally" 1941 yes because the posts excplicitely mentione the war conditions such as the Blockade for example.

Not to poop all over your reply; I had mentioned prior circumstances due to the context of the more recent posts:

The Germans knew since pre WWI, that time was on the Russians' side, the USSR was only going to get more powerful in relation to Germany. The outcome of the world wars proved this to be true btw.

Germany currently has a higher GDP then Russia. Time turned out to be on Germany's side despite Germany trying to prevent this with shit handed diplomacy.

In any case...

In "literally" 1941, Germany has dug themselves very deep into a hole already, but it STILL doesn't necessitate that they finish as the junior to the USSR. Even if they end up in a very weak short or mid-term position with the USSR starting to really take advantage that doesn't necessarily mean it holds true long-term if the war ends. Especially true if we're talking USA and USSR at war in 1941 for whatever silly reason. Yeah, their economy was a downward spiral fueled by looting, but that can be mitigated by a decent enough peace for them. Their real difficulty is the nationalized economy, but then, we're off in what if land so maybe that can ease off too.

 

[SorelusImperion]

but it STILL doesn't necessitate that they finish as the junior to the USSR

There are no certainties in "what if" Scenarios but probabilities are not in favour of Germany. It is exactly because of a combination of the Devastation caused directly and indirectly by the wars with Germany and the USSRs diplomatic continued Isolation that Germany ended up in a better Position than the USSR.

Germany not devastating Russia but instead helping it by trading under circumstances favourable to the USSR is much more likely than not to place Germany in an unfavourable Position towards the USSR. You already mentioned it: It would need a decent peace and thats exactly what Nazi Germany under HItler is likely unable to get because Hitler is still Hitler.

 

[lollercoaster]

The US together with Japan actually managed to invade half of Siberia during the Russian civil war, up until 1922 iirc when the occupation became too expensive, and the Bolsheviks started asserting themselves there...

In 1941 the US would def have the element of surprise.. Stalin couldn't even believe it when Germany invaded, but an unnanounced US invasion from the east? They probably wouldn't react until us forces came pouring out of the Urals.

Though theirs also the fact that the US would be busy fighting Japan, rather than cooperating with them as allies like before.

 

[Edopardo]

The US together with Japan actually managed to invad half of Siberia during the Russian civil war, up until 1922 iirc when the occupation became too expensive, and the Bolsheviks started asserting themselves there...
In 1941 the US would def have the element of surprise.. Stalin couldn't even believe it when Germany invaded, but an unnanounced US invasion from the east? They probably wouldn't react until us forces came pouring out of the Urals.
Though theirs also the fact that the US would be busy fighting Japan, rather than cooperating with them as allies like before.

How the hell could anyone manage to maintain an efficient supply line from Vladivostok to the Urals for an army as big as the one that would be needed to fight the Soviets in European Russia?
Event at peace with Japan that would be unfeasible.

 

[keynes2.0]

Size of armies is really just a red herring. Infantry are just there to make it possible for the artillery behind them to lob lots of shells. The US was capable of delivering a lot of shells to the frontline through very long supply lines. Going across Russia would be harder so they couldn't just push forward with faith that the logistics would catch up but after some time building up a hypothetical american army in siberia would be better supplied then the soviet army there.

The US doesn't really need to worry about soviet submarines very much and was capable of building railways in Persia very quickly.

 

[bitmapmedivh]

Germany had direct land access to the smooth and welcoming European part of the USSR, a rolling war machine and ability to attack by surprise.

The USA would have only 3 points where to land - Kola, Leningrad and Ukraine.

What would make the USA successful there?

And neither of those landing spots are feasible in any way, shape or form. Good luck sailing a fleet and transport armada from New York across the Atlantic, through the Belt into the Baltic and right up into the Finnish Bay and have it succeed. Or through the Bosphorous and attempt to take Crimea or Odessa. And if they want to land at Murmansk and truck across the Kola Peninsula and down through Karelia by all means, try it. I'm sure it'll be stroke of genius.

 

[Vonbach]

Thats easy the USA would've flattened the USSR. The USA had production and logistics that the USSR or Germany could only dream of.
Never mind that the USSR was supported for the entire war by the USA. We could've easily supplied our forces with basically whatever we needed.
If the USA had allied with Germany the war would've been over so fast it would've been laughable.