USSR - How many tank battalions in a division to get the Armor Genius buffs?

[eastcoastceojam]

The USSR has Konstatin Rokossovsky, an Armor Genius, who gives +15% to attack/defense for Armor divisions.

My question is how many tank battalions does a division need to have to get this bonus? Or is this bonus applied at the battalion level? So if I had 3 battalions of tanks + 7 Motorized, those tank battalions would still get the+15% bonuses? I assume that in this example, the Motorized would not be affected by the Armor advisor.

Also, do the Armor Genius bonuses apply to Armor variants like SPG, SPAA, and Tank Destroyers?

 

[xtfoster]

IIRC the division hardness has to be => 40%, so it isn't a set amount of battalions, or even a set ratio of Tanks to Mot.

 

[bitmode]

My question is how many tank battalions does a division need to have to get this bonus? Or is this bonus applied at the battalion level?

The bonus from armor genius is a division bonus, so the division as a whole needs to be classified as armor. The type of a division is the one of the most highly weighted battalion type present, which you can see showing up as the default division icon in the division designer. If you're the calculating type, here are some battalion weights (all of them can be found in the game files in common/units/*.txt as the "priority" attribute):

• infantry: 600
• motorized: 599
• mechanized: 610
• light tank: 2501
• medium tank: 2502
• heavy tank: 2503

So the example you mentioned of 3 (let's say medium) tanks plus 7 motorized would have a medium tank weight of 3 * 2502 = 7506 and a motorized weight of 7 * 599 = 4193, resulting in a medium tank - and hence armor - division.

IIRC the division hardness has to be => 40%, so it isn't a set amount of battalions, or even a set ratio of Tanks to Mot.

You are thinking of the experience requirement for general's Panzer Leader trait: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Commander_trait#Panzer_Leader

 

[eastcoastceojam]

If you're the calculating type, here are some battalion weights (all of them can be found in the game files in common/units/*.txt as the "priority" attribute):

• infantry: 600
• motorized: 599
• mechanized: 610
• light tank: 2501
• medium tank: 2502
• heavy tank: 2503

So the example you mentioned of 3 (let's say medium) tanks plus 7 motorized would have a medium tank weight of 3 * 2502 = 7506 and a motorized weight of 7 * 599 = 4193, resulting in a medium tank - and hence armor - division.

Thanks for the response, and for the location of the relevant game files, @bitmode.

Since a tank battalion has roughly 4x the weight of an infantry one, as long as I have 1 tank unit for every 4 infantry units in a division, that division would be classified as "armor". I dug around in the game files you referenced, and also found the weights for SPG and TDs are 1795, and the weight for SPAA is 301.

Now that I know the usefulness of the default icon, here is how low you can push the # of tanks/SPGs to maintain the status of an "armor" division. This is with maxed out Mass Assault / Deep Battle doctrine (courtesy of the console). I would never use either template in a real game, but it is good to know the boundaries:

It takes one more SPG battalion to maintain the "armor" classification for the overall division:

Last stupid question for the night... will my Heavy SPG division would also get the bonus from the Armor Genius, just like the Heavy Tank division?

 

[desphorin]

Thanks for the response, and for the location of the relevant game files, @bitmode.

Since a tank battalion has roughly 4x the weight of an infantry one, as long as I have 1 tank unit for every 4 infantry units in a division, that division would be classified as "armor". I dug around in the game files you referenced, and also found the weights for SPG and TDs are 1795, and the weight for SPAA is 301.

Now that I know the usefulness of the default icon, here is how low you can push the # of tanks/SPGs to maintain the status of an "armor" division. This is with maxed out Mass Assault / Deep Battle doctrine (courtesy of the console). I would never use either template in a real game, but it is good to know the boundaries:

View attachment 639925

It takes one more SPG battalion to maintain the "armor" classification for the overall division:

View attachment 639930



Last stupid question for the night... will my Heavy SPG division would also get the bonus from the Armor Genius, just like the Heavy Tank division?

Yes, since SPG are considered both armour and arty, so a SPG division will get the armour genius bonus (plus a artillery genius if you have one!)

 

[bitmode]

Now that I know the usefulness of the default icon, here is how low you can push the # of tanks/SPGs to maintain the status of an "armor" division.

You can also mix different types of infantry to push the number of tanks down even further. Each type of battalion counts separately. E.g. you can have 4 infantry, 4 motorized and one heavy tank at would still count as a tank division.

@desphorin answered your other question. In principle you can look up these mappings in the game files as well but there is a bit more cruft involved:

• Konstatin Rokossovsky is a Soviet national idea, so you'll find him in common/ideas/soviet.txt, where it says he has trait "army_armored_3" (Armor Genius)
• this can be found alongside all traits of country leaders in common/country_leader/00_traits.txt, where it says the trait provides "army_armor_attack_factor = 0.15" and "army_armor_defence_factor = 0.15"
• the battalions in common/units/*.txt have a type attribute as well as a few other yes/no attributes which control the application of such modifiers:
  • type = { [...] infantry [...] }: army_infantry_attack_factor; the same applies for armor, artillery, mechanized, motorized, and rocket
  • special_forces = yes: special_forces_attack_factor
  • cavalry = yes: cavalry_attack_factor
• all of these except "rocket" also have a corresponding defense modifier
• as mentioned, SPGs benefit from two different advisors (including Armor Genius) because their type attribute looks like this: type = { armor artillery }
• cavalry benefits from both cavalry and infantry advisors because they have cavalry = yes and type = { infantry }

 

[Fulmen]

As many as it takes to switch the default specification of the division to armoured.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Thanks for all your responses- this thread has been very informative.

One more follow-up question, @bitmode. I was surprised to see Cavalry with type=infantry, since the qualifying Infantry types on Land Doctrine techs (like Mobile Warfare's Delay), Cav units are not listed as Infantry.

Is this type = {infantry} just for purposes of the Military High Command advisor bonuses? And the categories = {category_all_infantry} is the variable used for Land Doctrine techs?

That would make sense to me, as it seems tough to believe that your Doctrines could dramatically improve your Horse "technology", which likely plateaued back in the days of the Timurids.

 cavalry = {
    cavalry = yes
    type = { infantry }
    group = mobile
    categories = {
        category_front_line
        category_army       }
}
      

infantry = {
    type = { infantry }
    group = infantry
    categories = {
        category_front_line
        category_light_infantry
        category_all_infantry
        category_army        }
}

And, to end on a more humorous note, check out Konstatin Rokossovsky's latest "armor" division template- It's amazing what this man can do with just a single tank battalion. He is a true genius!

 

[desphorin]

Thanks for all your responses- this thread has been very informative.

One more follow-up question, @bitmode. I was surprised to see Cavalry with type=infantry, since the qualifying Infantry types on Land Doctrine techs (like Mobile Warfare's Delay), Cav units are not listed as Infantry.

Is this type = {infantry} just for purposes of the Military High Command advisor bonuses? And the categories = {category_all_infantry} is the variable used for Land Doctrine techs?

That would make sense to me, as it seems tough to believe that your Doctrines could dramatically improve your Horse "technology", which likely plateaued back in the days of the Timurids.

 cavalry = {
    cavalry = yes
    type = { infantry }
    group = mobile
    categories = {
        category_front_line
        category_army       }
}
     

infantry = {
    type = { infantry }
    group = infantry
    categories = {
        category_front_line
        category_light_infantry
        category_all_infantry
        category_army        }
}

And, to end on a more humorous note, check out Konstatin Rokossovsky's latest "armor" division template- It's amazing what this man can do with just a single tank battalion. He is a true genius!

View attachment 640109

As you are messing with the designer, try out a 2-1 cavalry-artillery division (or a larger one as long as the ratio is maintained). Put all cav in the leftmost column and observe what division type it is. Then move all the artillery to the leftmost instead and observe again.

This makes probably the only instance where battalion placement in the designer actually matters.

 

[bitmode]

Is this type = {infantry} just for purposes of the Military High Command advisor bonuses? And the categories = {category_all_infantry} is the variable used for Land Doctrine techs?

That would make sense to me, as it seems tough to believe that your Doctrines could dramatically improve your Horse "technology", which likely plateaued back in the days of the Timurids.

You're correct. Virtually all doctrine techs operate on the battalion level (using categories where CAV is not infantry) while advisors virtually always deal with division level bonuses (using type).

 

[blahmaster6k]

If you want to be able to see easily in game, you can hover the tooltips in the land doctrine (click on the doctrine for the detailed pop-up), and it will specify exactly which battalions benefit from a particular bonus.

Example:

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread.

Just finished conquering Turkey and Romania, Lessons of War is underway to purge the Purge. I'm now working on building up to withstand Barbarossa. During the recent war, I was able to earn the Infantry Leader/Infantry Expert trait for my Field Marshall and 3 of my generals.

It just dawned on me that these Infantry division bonuses work in concert with the Armor Genius. So armor battalions get buffs regardless of what division they serve in. So if I put a HTD or SPG unit in an Infantry division, those will get buffed almost as good as they would be in an Armor division.

And any Infantry or Artillery units in an Armor division, like we discussed earlier, would get the buff from the Armor Genius. And if I'm lucky enough to eventually earn the Panzer Leader/Panzer Expert traits for one of these generals, then that would double-stack with the Armor Genius to give even more buffs to my tanks and armor variants.

Is this right?

 

[desphorin]

It just dawned on me that I can now stack these Infantry division bonuses with my Armor Genius, to get buffs to my Armor battalions regardless of what kind of division they serve in.

I thought we came to conclusion that armour battalions in an infantry division only gets infantry bonuses, and infantry battalions in an armour division only gets armour bonuses no? Since you cant make a division both infantry and armour at the same time, you cant benefit from the two bonuses simultaneously.

Also, since general xp gain is reduced by 25% for each trait you already earned, if you want a FM/general to lead a armoured corps, it might be better to grind a new one.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

I thought we came to conclusion that armour battalions in an infantry division only gets infantry bonuses, and infantry battalions in an armour division only gets armour bonuses no? Since you cant make a division both infantry and armour at the same time, you cant benefit from the two bonuses simultaneously.

Sorry, I used the work "stack", which means the bonuses are added together, when I should have said "work together." Here's the point I was trying to make but failed to:

It just dawned on me that these Infantry division bonuses work in concert with my Armor Genius. So armor battalions get buffs regardless of what division they serve in. So if I put a HTD or SPG unit in an Infantry division, those will get buffed from the Infantry Leader/Expert trait almost as good (+10% attack/defense) as they would be in an Armor division.

And thanks for the reminder about the increasing trait cost for Generals. That, plus the different required divisions, does make it tough to get Panzer Expert and Infantry Expert on the same commander.

Also, since general xp gain is reduced by 25% for each trait you already earned, if you want a FM/general to lead a armoured corps, it might be better to grind a new one.

 

[blahmaster6k]

I thought we came to conclusion that armour battalions in an infantry division only gets infantry bonuses, and infantry battalions in an armour division only gets armour bonuses no? Since you cant make a division both infantry and armour at the same time, you cant benefit from the two bonuses simultaneously.

Also, since general xp gain is reduced by 25% for each trait you already earned, if you want a FM/general to lead a armoured corps, it might be better to grind a new one.

Yeah, as USSR or Germany it's pretty important if you're min-maxing to grind a new general in the Spanish Civil War. I usually try to grind out two of them, one to be the general and one to be the field marshal for my tanks. I wrote a guide for how to general grind somewhere in my post history here but I don't have it at the moment, i'll edit in a link or make a follow-up post quoting it.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

I wrote a guide for how to general grind somewhere in my post history here but I don't have it at the moment, i'll edit in a link or make a follow-up post quoting it.

Is this the post you were referring to?

Template for expedition forces (SP)

I read a lot of build ups, especially for Germany, and there are different approaches to expedition forces. Most guide writers use the light rank template, sometimes micro-managed, sometimes fire-and-forget with a command to grind leader skills...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[blahmaster6k]

Is this the post you were referring to?

Template for expedition forces (SP)

I read a lot of build ups, especially for Germany, and there are different approaches to expedition forces. Most guide writers use the light rank template, sometimes micro-managed, sometimes fire-and-forget with a command to grind leader skills...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Yeah, that's it. Incidentally I had just found it myself and was about to post it here but you already did it haha. Hopefully it helps.