useless variants!?

[steindroff]

At first: I love the idea of the new variants of tanks, ships, ...!!

But since a post of Podcat I'm a little scared, that these variants (specially the tank variants) will be quiet useless ...
I can't refind the post, but Podcat said, that we won't be able to choose a concrete tank type for our devisions (in the divisions planer), but only if we want to use light, medium or heavy tanks ... and than the game will choose the 'best' tanks of this type from our storage.

An example:
I researched Panzer III and Panzer IV. Now I build a fast tank variant of Panzer III (stong engine, but low arms) and a strong one of Panzer IV (stong arms, but low engine). Now I want to have two types of panzer divisions: a fast one to rush (of course with my fast Panzer III) and a heavy to fight (... with the strong Panzer IV). But in the divison planer I'm just able to select medium tanks for both divisions ... so the game will put the (stronger) Panzer IV in both divisions and make the differentation into rush and combat divisions .. well, impossible!? :blink::sad:

My question: why do the developers make the (tank) variants that 'useless'!??
Please, Please, give us the possibility to decide, wich tank typ we want to use for our divisions!!! Like Panzer IIIA for this and Panzer IVH for that division ... :excl:

 

[Snow Wolf]

... wouldn't you use a light tank in the first place?

 

[Secret Master]

I'm not sure, but wouldn't you just tell the division builder "add a light armor battalion" as opposed to "add a tank battalion"?

And wouldn't you want to use the best light tank for your light tank battalions?

 

[steindroff]

... wouldn't you use a light tank in the first place?

I'm not sure, but wouldn't you just tell the division builder "add a light armor battalion" as opposed to "add a tank battalion"?

sure ... but if you look here:

you just have light tanks (Leopard) from 1941 ... what if I want to rush Poland in 1939 or France in 1940!? Just like in real I'll only have Panzer I - III ... so 'mediums' :unsure:

 

[Axe99]

There was some discussion of this in another thread, with a mock-up (by Poh, I think, but my memory's crazy hazy) of a tech tree with three distinct columns (light, medium and heavy), which Darkrenown commented positively on, so it's still the case that you may have distinct tracks for each. In that thread, one of the devs (I think DarkRenown again, but memory off with the pixies) mentioned Pz 1 and II were light tanks, and III and IV medium, so they do have pre-1941 light tanks in the game. That screenshot is pre-alpha, they were probably just working things out.

 

[steindroff]

In that thread, one of the devs (I think DarkRenown again, but memory off with the pixies) mentioned Pz 1 and II were light tanks, and III and IV medium, so they do have pre-1941 light tanks in the game.

ok ... than my example with Panzer I and Panzer II in '36!? same problem, only with lights ...

Fact is: in real live Panzer I and Panzer II had a very different use at the battlefield (and also later Panzer III and Panzer IV) ... The Panzer I (and Panzer III) were designed for anti tank, while the heavier Panzer II (and Panzer IV) were support tanks for infantry!

So if you want to distinguish the tanks only with light or medium, the Panzer I and III have to be light and Panzer II and IV have to be mediums, haven't they!? :unsure:

 

[safe-keeper]

sure ... but if you look here:

you just have light tanks (Leopard) from 1941 ... what if I want to rush Poland in 1939 or France in 1940!? Just like in real I'll only have Panzer I - III ... so 'mediums' :unsure:

I'm pretty sure that's the "tech year", like in EU3 and HOI3, not the year it becomes available. As in, if you research it too early, you get a research speed penalty.

 

[Secret Master]

Isn't the Leichtraktor a light tank? It's the first on the whole chart.

 

[steindroff]

Isn't the Leichtraktor a light tank? It's the first on the whole chart.

ok, that's right. and maybe the hole tree is Alpha and many things will change ...

but my point is, that I will like (want) to decide wicht medium or light or heavy tank works in wicht division. It's so cool to leave one of the most abstract parts in HoI3 and give us a concrete typ (and number) of tanks! But why just go half the way!? For me it feels like show a dog a bone, hold it in front of his nose but don't let him get it. If we are able to have different tanks (and also variants) why don't let us decide, where we want to use it?

 

[Denkt]

I would say that a battalion made up of different tanks with different speed would gain the mean value speed of all these tanks.

 

[Saltspring]

One thing to consider in World War II most armored divisions used what they got they didn't have much choice in what they were assigned and often had a variety of tanks in their division unless they were freshly formed with that latest equipment due to the fact that. Tanks got damaged and repaired and often enough the tank that got damaged couldn't be replaced by one of the same type. Or tanks with different rolls were needed in the same division a perfect example being the 75mm and 76mm Shermans, the 75mm having a better HE round and being more effective against infantry than the 76mm with weaker HE round, but with an AP round the 76mm could penetrate armor better. Interestingly the mix works almost as well as just having one type, since in the heat of battle it is often hard to determine which tank shooting is the greatest threat especially if they look similar.

 

[wingo]

As far as I can remember you can't choose specific tanks in the divisional builder, because templates are few and generic, but there will be some customization with specific divisions - only thing not known yet (maybe even to the devs, remember - alpha) is if you can only prioritize reinforcements (so designated priority divisions will have newer Pz4 and the rest older Pz3 if you dont have enought Pz4 to equip all divisions) or you can prioritize specific equipment for a division (so if you select Pz3 as priority, it should be equipped with Pz3 even if you have enough Pz4). The thing is, research in HOI is such that Pz4 will always be better than Pz3 because it is newer tech, so a more viable tactic may be to create two Pz4 variants - one faster, the other more armoured/upgunned and the game should support both somehow, because none is newer/better. Unless, of course, you want to take advantage of those Pz3 practicals, in that case it makes sense to create a specialised variant, although inferior, but buildable in greater numbers.

 

[Wyrm]

ok ... than my example with Panzer I and Panzer II in '36!? same problem, only with lights ...

Fact is: in real live Panzer I and Panzer II had a very different use at the battlefield (and also later Panzer III and Panzer IV) ... The Panzer I (and Panzer III) were designed for anti tank, while the heavier Panzer II (and Panzer IV) were support tanks for infantry!

Uhm, the Panzer I was designated a training vehicle and was only used on the front as a stop-gap due to the lack of other tanks. Armed with only 2x7.92mm MGs it would have had a hard job being used in an anti tank role.
And the Panzer II was also a stop-gap that was quickly developed due to delays in Pz III and Pz IV development. So the Pz II was a bit of a multi-purpose tank to make up for lack of Pz III and Pz IV

Of the 2700 tanks available for the invasion of Poland, only 310 were PzIII and PzIV.

 

[wolf1455]

Mind you that the German player might have the Pz35 and Pz38 available when Czhecoslovakia is captured. They where better than the Pz1-II and was available in some quantites and was continued by the Czech Skoda factory. I imagine this will be handled in the game as this influx of these tanks made a great differense early on. And many variants was produced with the Pz38 chassie. Marder III, Grille, Flakpanzer38 and JagdPanzer38(Hetzer).

 

[Denkt]

Mind you that the German player might have the Pz35 and Pz38 available when Czhecoslovakia is captured. They where better than the Pz1-II and was available in some quantites and was continued by the Czech Skoda factory. I imagine this will be handled in the game as this influx of these tanks made a great differense early on. And many variants was produced with the Pz38 chassie. Marder III, Grille, Flakpanzer38 and JagdPanzer38(Hetzer).

If they allow capture of production lines yes.
Czhecolslovakia probably should start, (depending on how tech works) with better tank tech then Germany.
However Germany should probably get some bonus to represent their radio useage, maybe tied into blizt doctrime.

 

[Emperor of Europe]

What’s the point of an equipment pool, if you can’t decide where that equipment goes? Playing as Germany, I want to be able to recreate historic decisions. Need a panzer division to guard the Atlantic wall? Equip it with captured French tanks and obsolete models. Produced 400 new Panthers? Reinforce veteran divisions or build new ones. And so on, and so on.

 

[steindroff]

One thing to consider in World War II most armored divisions used what they got they didn't have much choice in what they were assigned and often had a variety of tanks in their division unless they were freshly formed with that latest equipment due to the fact that. Tanks got damaged and repaired and often enough the tank that got damaged couldn't be replaced by one of the same type. Or tanks with different rolls were needed in the same division a perfect example being the 75mm and 76mm Shermans, the 75mm having a better HE round and being more effective against infantry than the 76mm with weaker HE round, but with an AP round the 76mm could penetrate armor better. Interestingly the mix works almost as well as just having one type, since in the heat of battle it is often hard to determine which tank shooting is the greatest threat especially if they look similar.

yes, you're right and maybe it is more usefull to have many different types of tanks in one division, but:

What’s the point of an equipment pool, if you can’t decide where that equipment goes? Playing as Germany, I want to be able to recreate historic decisions. Need a panzer division to guard the Atlantic wall? Equip it with captured French tanks and obsolete models. Produced 400 new Panthers? Reinforce veteran divisions or build new ones. And so on, and so on.

... and you can also put different battalions of tanks in one division, can't you!? like two battalions with Panzer 4 and a third with Panzer 3 ... and than you have exactly the situation you talked about, like two different types of Shermans!

 

[Porkman]

This is a legitimate question that needs an answer. What might work better than tying it to divisions is tying it to the equipment pool itself. So I an go into my equipment pool, click on the upgunned panzer 3 variant and click a button telling it to only send these panzer 3's to specific kinds of divisions or even specific divisions.

You could also click them not to be used for reinforcements so they can be upgraded and then sent out again.

 

[Emperor of Europe]

... and you can also put different battalions of tanks in one division, can't you!? like two battalions with Panzer 4 and a third with Panzer 3 ... and than you have exactly the situation you talked about, like two different types of Shermans!

Not according to the OP. It seems we can decide whether it's a light, medium or heavy battalion, but not what kind of light, medium or heavy tank the battalion has.

rgds/EoE

 

[Snow Wolf]

These are not Panzer Is, these are not Panzer IIs and not IIIs- they are Tank tech level 39, tank tech level 40 and 41.