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K W

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The Problem

Darkest Hour changed the way a country accumulates manpower drastically. The manpower pool is now filled with mobilization decisions, and not with the natural manpower growth that became extremely small. This is certainly not something I will complain about -- it is more historical and gives the game more depth.

However, the original minister personalities haven't been adjusted accordingly in order to pay tribute to this drastic change. Some minister personalities -- like the Man of the People Minister of Security -- that contribute a percental boost to manpower grwoth, are now virtually worthless. They do not have the slightest impact on mobilization decisions, so they only boost the miniscule manpower growth, and this "boost" is laughable. Look at the following table I created, based on the assumption that I could appoint manpower boosting ministers already in 1936 (although this is not always possible as sometimes no manpower ministers are available in 1936 or have been already appointed):

manpowergrowth.png


Of course, the usefulness of the manpower ministers will grow if the mobilization level increases. But only look at Italy, that is partially mobilized already in 1936: Appointing a People's War Doctrine Chief of Staff would only grant Italy 5 points if manpower -- in ten (!) years, so after a decade this minister would allow the production of a half infantry division. And Italy has already appointed in 1936 a Man of the People MoS and a People's War CoS in 1936, so basically the Daily Manpower Growth of Italy is its Effective Daily Manpower Growth. My calculations on Italy assume that I could appoint a second People's War CoS, which is, of course, actually not possible and makes the 5 MP boost in ten years far higher than the actual MP boost someone could achieve with a People's War CoS.

In Hearts of Iron 2, these ministers were powerful and highly desired for solving manpower problems. In Darkest Hour, I can't think of even one single situation in which it would be profitable to appoint a minister that provides a manpower growth bonus, even the research of the far weaker manpower growth techs becomes debatable. Unless it wasn't intended to change the once advantageous manpower growth modifier into a pointless one, I would suggest to make some changes so that the manpower ministers and techs become useful again.

Possible Solutions

Retaining the current system

If we want to go along with the current system -- so that mobilization provides the bulk of the manpower, while manpower growth is only a supplement -- I would propose to either give the manpower ministers other useful modifiers from a totally different category (suggestions are welcome) or to strengthen the manpower modifier bonuses. One way to do the latter would be this:

  • Double all manpower growth modifiers for ministers (this includes special cases like Hitler, for example).
  • Triple all manpower growth modifiers for technologies. Especially the research of Mass Produced Penicillin that currently gives only a two percent boost in manpower growth is something I would call outright ahistorical. Penicillin saved during World War II the lifes of hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers, and I'm not even mentioning the amount of civilian lifes that were saved due to Flemings discovery. In this game it saves perhaps the lifes of one thousand soldiers at best (if you subscribe to the approximation 1 MP = 1000 men). A hefty trickleback modifier for Mass Produced Penicillin would also be nice, because if one thing in this world would justify "Trickleback" (destroyed STR during battles returns to a certain degree into the manpower pool) it would be Penicillin.
  • Scrap the negative modifiers for the mobilisation/demobilization policy slider. Where is the justification for this anyway? That people, the more I mobilize, start to get more children? Or that they start to get fewer children the more I demobilize?
  • In order to prevent balancing issues measures to reduce the overall manpower could be taken, e. g. the immediate manpower change when enacting mobilization decisions could be slightly nerfed. Suggestions about this are welcome.

Abolishing the current system

On the other hand, one could ask why there is the concept of "manpower growth" at all in the game when the new mobilisation system is now in 99 percent of the cases the only way to get a substantial amount of manpower. Even when playing from 1936 to 1964 or 1914 to 1942, the generated manpower through the manpower growth is so small that I can't understand why we have manpower growth at all in this game. 24 years of partial mobilization would be necessary as Italy to get roughly 83 MP. I think that in this case it would be better to scrap the whole system and set manpower growth to 0 as a default setting and replace all manpower growth modifiers in this game with other modifiers. A growth in manpower could be simulated by random events (e.g. a baby boom during peacetime with low dissent) or with additional decisions that help to raise more men -- War Propaganda is, for example, already integrated and fills immediatly the manpower pool when the decision is taken. This could be extended with some other decisions, for example with a decision for Fascists to enact compulsory membership in national youth organizations (which would obviously increase the number of able-bodied men that qualify for military service), or for Democrats and Communists to start an advertisement campaign in foreign countries to hire additional soldiers from abroad (this could be even historically extended, for example by giving the UK after the annexation of Poland this decision for free, thus simulating the use of Polish soldiers in exile). In this way we could easily reach the roughly 70 - 100 MP someone could get through natural manpower growth in 28 years and would even add some flavour to the game. If there would also be a trigger that would allow to check if the country has a minister with a certain personality, like Man of the People, the manpower gain from such decisions could be increased and thus it wouldn't be even necessary to look for other useful modifiers in other areas for the currently worthless manpower ministers.

Considering the manpower growth modifier in mobilization decisions

But I think that the easiest way would be to add a trigger that checks the manpower growth modifier and to give, according to the manpower growth modifier that is a result of technologies, ministers, and policies, additional MP points when increasing mobilisation. However, this could be also the most difficult solution in terms of implementation, as it would require a direct change of the game engine, because to my knowledge there is no trigger with which it is possible to check the overall manpower growth modifier; so this might not be viable.
 
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nattai

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I think the best solution would be to change the effects of the ministers.

For example the People's War Doctrine minister could reduce the time needed to build land units.

Agreed that this is a very good analysis. The above minister could perhaps lower the dissent hit for mobilisation?
 

vota dc

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I am agree with the OP. Of course manpower techs and ministers should be useless for Luxemburg, but should make the difference for bigger countries.
Standard manpower growth seems very low. Ethiopia has double manpower on the map than Hoi 2, starts at war but the growth is a little less than Hoi 2. And is nearly nothing if you are at peace.
 

StarscreamSWE

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Interesting reading indeed.
A very fine analyses!
 

Rotten Venetic

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I think the best solution would be to change the effects of the ministers.

For example the People's War Doctrine minister could reduce the time needed to build land units.

Good one. Well, thanks for making minister traits moddable, it means I won't need to wait. Still, I don't think I'll give any minister more than a -5% to unit production time or cost, if that. Man of the People and People's War proponent will get +morale on them.
 

kodiak491

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Why not have the manpower ministers apply a very slight decrease to the manpower needed to build units. This would pay off for any size nation and would do so in proportion to its size and need.
 

Rotten Venetic

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I don't think there is a modifier in the engine for that. Which it would be dope as well, though :D

Offtopic: Read the Aubrey-Maturin series only at your own peril. You'll be tempted to speak and write in the archaic English they converse in (that's just how pro it is).
 

5Geldpakete

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+1 Abolishing the current system

The Mobilization-System isn't transparent enough and gives a lot of dissent.
Especially for no-hardcore gamers the system is to difficult. And in comparison to vanilla HoI2, you get always dissent in DH... JAP gets 12 dissent for mobilization (!). Terrible! The whole time you are decreasing the dissent.
 

Jekolmy

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I've been playing around with the tech files some and even a 500% increase in the relative manpower growth still doesn't really allow for 1 MP to be raised in a month (qualifier '36 Germany).

I instead have been using the 'type = manpowerpool value' command for each level of agriculture from 1937 onwards. It gives a nice chunk of MP at a relative value of 2.5 (~200MP as Germany in 1936) Represents all the manpower that is no longer required to farm as more advanced farming techniques are developed that allow for the same production levels with fewer farmers. That might make more sense for the agricultural techs than improvements to industry and supply production.
 

ZoGoNDragoN

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How about manpower ministers having absolute manpower increase (e.g., +1.0 manpower per month) or relative manpower increase propotional to population? Let's assume that a country's population is a constant coded in the game, or a value which is increasing according to manpower techs.