usage of womans in combat/factory - more political options :)

[Czert]

it is realy simple, will be here option to have polici afecting womans ? they after all, have realy big impact on results of war. hitlers germany did have onlyest polici for womans ad that was "kitchen, kids, hause", they very reluctant to send them to factorys for work or to do auxiliary units for combat forces, until sutiation was realy despefrte for them.
while soviets sended them msovely to factorys practicaly day one once war started, and formed some famous woman-only units, while some woman warriors were realy legendary. For us - welll they send them to factoryes only, but it realy helped them to keep production while mans were send to war.

 

[PlacidDragon]

it is realy simple, will be here option to have polici afecting womans ? they after all, have realy big impact on results of war. hitlers germany did have onlyest polici for womans ad that was "kitchen, kids, hause", they very reluctant to send them to factorys for work or to do auxiliary units for combat forces, until sutiation was realy despefrte for them.
while soviets sended them msovely to factorys practicaly day one once war started, and formed some famous woman-only units, while some woman warriors were realy legendary. For us - welll they send them to factoryes only, but it realy helped them to keep production while mans were send to war.

Well, its really just called a general mobilization. Women took over most jobs, leaving the men free to be deployed to fight. Most countries did this (US, UK, The Soviet Union, etc).

Germany however, did not, as Nazi ideology deemed the workplace unsuitable for women. They did not even mobilize fully until 1943. And even in 1943, where Germany required all females from 17 - 45 to register, nothing really came of it as Hitler's goal was to "protect women from moral and mental harm".

How you could possibly model a change in this without making Germany insanely overpowered is beyond me

 

[Klausewitz]

Even Nazi Germany did that, only they had alot of un-discussable additional ressources that made the need for women less pressing, but nevertheless about 14 million women worked.
Most in agriculture, though also a lot in industry (if memory serves about 3 millions) and domestic service (as my grandma did).
This espcially applies to unmarried women but especially in agriculture it would have been inconveicable for women not to work.

 

[Secret Master]

And apparently, due to a lack of mechanization of agriculture, woman were needed to work on German farms. Labor shortages aren't just for factories.

 

[Klausewitz]

And apparently, due to a lack of mechanization of agriculture, woman were needed to work on German farms. Labor shortages aren't just for factories.

Not just lack of mechanization.
There were also numerous small farms basically worked by one extended family.
The women were simply indispensable and so in the war where before the war a bauer and his wife had worked the fields together with their children now the Bäuerin worked the fields with the help of one or more forbidden subjects.

Wiki:
On the eve of war 14.6 million German women were working, with 51% of women of working age (16-60 years old) in the workforce. Nearly six million were doing farm work, as Germany's agricultural economy was dominated by small family farms. 2.7 million worked in industry. When the German economy was mobilized for war it paradoxically led to a drop in female work participation, reaching a low of 41% before gradually climbing back to over 50% again. This still compares favorably with the UK and the USA, both playing catchup, with Britain achieving a participation rate of 41% of women of working age in 1944. However, in terms of women employed in war work, British and German female participation rates were nearly equal by 1944, with the United States still lagging. The difficulties the Third Reich faced in increasing the size of the work force was mitigated by reallocating labor to work that supported the war effort. High wages in war industries attracted hundreds of thousands, freeing up men for military duties.

So Germany actually had more women in workforce than any other participant other than the SU.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

And apparently, due to a lack of mechanization of agriculture, woman were needed to work on German farms. Labor shortages aren't just for factories.

Glad your finally coming around

 

[frolix42]

Everybody kvell!

 

[Denkt]

Much more important would be if you could modernise Germany's and others industry to true mass production that Soviet and USA did have.
Lack of mechanization in factories was probably as big as a problem as lack of mechanization in agriculture.

 

[Klausewitz]

Much more important would be if you could modernise Germany's and others industry to true mass production that Soviet and USA did have.
Lack of mechanization in factories was probably as big as a problem as lack of mechanization in agriculture.

Germany's agriculture sectore would be pretty much unreformable during the time of the game.
Both for reasons of social resistance but also for the simple fact that turning lots of small plots that go up and down the hills aren't really suited for large scale mechanized seeding and harvesting and would need severe landscaping.

 

[ringhloth]

Both the US and the USSR had significant amounts of women in the military. In the US, though, the red tape and social discrimination by both soldiers and their wives discouraged a lot of women from enrolling. The USSR had quite a few women in combat positions, though I believe as the war dragged on, more and more red tape was introduced, and recruiting slowed. There were a few Colonels and the like, mostly as air force aces. It'd be nice to see Marina Raskova as an ace, the founder of the "Night Witches," known for flying old biplanes that were too slow for the Germans to catch. If they tried, they'd end up stalling. Perhaps there can be a few flavor events with the higher mobilization laws that offer manpower in exchange for political capital, representing an effort to reduce red tape and make more position, combat or not, available to women.

 

[Opanashc]

Also, mechanization requires fuel. Fuel, that Germany did not have.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

Germany's agriculture sectore would be pretty much unreformable during the time of the game.
Both for reasons of social resistance but also for the simple fact that turning lots of small plots that go up and down the hills aren't really suited for large scale mechanized seeding and harvesting and would need severe landscaping.

We could add something that takes political power to enact to simulate this somehow. Maybe like 5 different levels or 10, USA and USSR already start at level 3/5 or 6/10.

 

[Secret Master]

Glad your finally coming around

Have I been a rabid supporter of Germany having up to date mechanized agriculture in the past?

 

[Denkt]

Germany's agriculture sectore would be pretty much unreformable during the time of the game.
Both for reasons of social resistance but also for the simple fact that turning lots of small plots that go up and down the hills aren't really suited for large scale mechanized seeding and harvesting and would need severe landscaping.

I think much the same applied to German factories from what I have read and heard.
They was useally smal and work was mainly done by hand while Soviet and USA had huge plants with the most modern stuff of their time which allowed many times the production per worker, they still had these smal factories but I don't think germany had many of the big ones.

Germany did not by my knowledge had little ability at large casting, Soviet and USA however could use casting to quickly build tanks, an development probably more important in the war then any development to the tanks themself.

 

[Klausewitz]

Germany did not by my knowledge had little ability at large casting

?


Anyways there some huge factories (Krupp, the Navalyards along the coast like Blohm and Voss or Weser AG, the BMW Werke) but most of Germany is Mittelstand.

 

[Daelyn75]

I understand the labour sitation of Nazi Germany during the time frame, however I don't think it would be impossible to greatly reform farm and industrial mechanization to bring them on par with the Soviets and the Americans. Hitler brought his country to ruin during the war, and people still followed him to the end, so changing up Germany's production to be more efficient shouldn't be out of the question, just not something simply done. Yeah, farms, women and their roles, and the small skilled workshops they had vrs total mechanization of the farm, and large scale manufacturing that would make production go through the roof compared to their historical numbers.

Tradition which the Third Reich greatly emphasized vrs high productivity. Slap on a series of dissent, have the Nazi leaders make many speeches, and have the reforms last many years. In the end you'd have an industrial beast that at least could match the Soviets, and going into Barbarossa double the tanks and airplanes they had historically.

 

[Denkt]

I understand the labour sitation of Nazi Germany during the time frame, however I don't think it would be impossible to greatly reform farm and industrial mechanization to bring them on par with the Soviets and the Americans. Hitler brought his country to ruin during the war, and people still followed him to the end, so changing up Germany's production to be more efficient shouldn't be out of the question, just not something simply done. Yeah, farms, women and their roles, and the small skilled workshops they had vrs total mechanization of the farm, and large scale manufacturing that would make production go through the roof compared to their historical numbers.

Tradition which the Third Reich greatly emphasized vrs high productivity. Slap on a series of dissent, have the Nazi leaders make many speeches, and have the reforms last many years. In the end you'd have an industrial beast that at least could match the Soviets, and going into Barbarossa double the tanks and airplanes they had historically.

It took Soviet a long time and extrem investment to reach what they did historical but Russia was in worse shape then Germany was in 1936.
It was the destruction of the war and its aftermath that allowed Europe to improve their factories, Soviets massive industry program while often overrated did give them an modern industry which maybe only USA could match in potential efficiency per worker.

Getting such efficiency should be costly in tech, equipment and time so it may not always be worth it.

If you want to make huge gain in industry as Germany or any other country do this:
Convert all military factories to civilian factories and build as many new civilian factories as possible.
Change laws to the most civilian economy as possible and the least conscription law as possible to get as much efficiency as possible for your civilian factories.

In some years you will have multiplied your production which could be represented as not only have new factories been built but new and better tools are used so your factories are more efficient and argiculture equipment have also been built so more now works in the factories.

On the other side noone did match the efficiency of the german army so germany did have a noticable advantage, however each year that passed some of this efficiency was lost.

 

[Opanashc]

Industry operation is like rearmament - you start earlier, get better product, then someone else does it, and your product is not the newest anymore. SU built the industry used in WW2 in 1930's. Germany - prior to WW1. SU was building its industry as a centralized thing, while Germany's was built by private companies, out for a profit.

 

[Daelyn75]

It took Soviet a long time and extrem investment to reach what they did historical but Russia was in worse shape then Germany was in 1936.
It was the destruction of the war and its aftermath that allowed Europe to improve their factories, Soviets massive industry program while often overrated did give them an modern industry which maybe only USA could match in potential efficiency per worker.

Getting such efficiency should be costly in tech, equipment and time so it may not always be worth it.

In the long run it would be, but might not be in time for the war. I still think it should be an option allowable for those nations with a fair bit of industry, say over 100 in HOI 2 terms. Make it rough for a couple of years, and then you'd have to play catch up. Say as Germany you do it in January 1st 1936, by January 1st 1939 you've cleared a lot of dissent, but your industry is well behind what it would have been had you gone historically. So you frantically get to building as much up as possible. By Sept 1st, you have half the panzers and airforce you otherwise would have had for Poland. By May 1940, you are nearly caught up to historical levels as your factories have been churning out more tanks/ships/airplanes than anyone else in the world. France, falls, then you build up for Barbarossa. By June of 1941 you have double the tanks and the airplanes that you otherwise would have had. Six thousand tanks, and four thousand airplanes. Not bad!

Anyhow, I actually speak from semi experience because I did a whole series of personal mods for HOI 2 years back and did exactly something like this to get Germany into full war gear with maximum mechanization. The dissent hits will painful, and I don't even think I had much at all for Poland, but nearly enough for France, and more than enough for the Soviets.

There would be other problems with this, such as Czechoslovakia not giving into German demands due to them not have a large enough military, but it might be worth it in the long run. Painful, slower, but eventually you'd have an industry to rival anything but the USA.

 

[Denkt]

With the efficiency system it will probably take longer then mid 1940 to catch up in number but the tech system could be used for your advantage as you will lose more efficiency if you change your lines to produce more modern stuff.

So you will have less numbers for a long time but will have more advanced stuff and later on both more number and more advanced stuff then you otherwise would have.
One other strategy would be instead of building civilian factories would be to build dockyards (naval IC) and go for a heavy navy strategy and maybe forget east for west.