USA vs USSR mp tips

[Lord KhaZimir]

Hello all,

With a friend we planned to try MP and we've chosen USA and USSR. I thought a good home rule would be to deny USA to join any side before USSR is at war so if USSR choose to get rid of the purges by attacking let's say iran, USA would be able to join/declare war when possible, if not, USA enters the war when Germany attacks USSR or USSR declare war to finland f.e.

Is it a good idea ? it seems to me obvious that AI Germany stands no chance against my commie friend so the risk is to see Europe becoming red before US can even react. What planning would you do knowing the Venezuela move is forbidden ? Other house rules to balance a bit ?

Strat bombing USSR seems difficult as industry and VP are spread out, still a good idea ? Can US navy do harm USSR by any way ? Won't be Russian tanks invincible for US armies ? Suggestions ?

 

[Secret Master]

Just when I thought everyone had asked every possible question about HOI4, someone comes along and asks about a US versus USSR game. I don't have all the answers, but I will try to give some:

With a friend we planned to try MP and we've chosen USA and USSR. I thought a good home rule would be to deny USA to join any side before USSR is at war so if USSR choose to get rid of the purges by attacking let's say iran, USA would be able to join/declare war when possible, if not, USA enters the war when Germany attacks USSR or USSR declare war to finland f.e.

If the USA is allowed to join the war the moment Germany attacks the Soviet Union or when the Soviets attack Finland (or some other target), then we have an interesting situation. Normally, the Soviet Union wants to increase WT to help the Allies mobilize for the war. But if you are planning East versus West, then the Soviet player may not want WT to get high. If WT isn't 100 by the time the Germans initiate Danzig, the US could be facing the problem of being behind in terms of potential mobilization. This occurs in MP games with a human Axis, but now we might be in the unenviable situation of the Soviets wanting to keep WT low to stall the US. If the Soviets forego raising WT and attacking Finland, and Japan never beats China, the USA might find it hard to do everything she wants. Given that Germany is AI, the Soviets should be able to wipe the floor with them faster than the US could get enough assets into Europe.

I'm not even sure what house rules you should use to make the situation fair; once the Soviets occupy Germany, they should have an unassailable advantage in terms of resources and IC.

Strat bombing USSR seems difficult as industry and VP are spread out, still a good idea ? Can US navy do harm USSR by any way ? Won't be Russian tanks invincible for US armies ? Suggestions ?

Let's keep in mind a few things about strategic bombing. The US gets a special national spirit (if she takes the strategic bombing NF) that boosts the range on her bombers by 50%. Unless the Soviets occupy everything from Gibraltar to Tokyo (including Iran, India, and Egypt), you should have plenty of places from which to bomb them with that kind of range.

You should also be able to use that NF to get 1944 strategic bombers sooner than you might otherwise.

And as the US you also get NFs to boost nuclear techs.

There should be no reason you can't have B-29s hitting major points in the Soviet Union with nukes by 1945. You will also need 1944 light fighters to escort them if the Soviet player bothers to remember to defend the airspace of the Motherland.

Aside from nukes, strategic bombers are potent when used properly. You need doctrines researched (strategic destruction, daylight bombing branch), good planes, and enough bombers hitting the same target to make a difference. 200 bombers isn't going to cut it. But 1500-2000 1944 bombers will obliterate air regions over the course of a few weeks if the enemy can't stop them. And if the Soviets occupy Berlin, that's a lot closer to Britain and easier to bomb. You might as well deny those factories to the Soviets.

Keep in mind that strategic bombing also kills airfields. There are places in the Soviet Union where airfields are sparse. If you kill those airfields, air resistance drops.

But strategic bombing can't win the war itself. It can only neutralize enemy IC or do other nasty things. You will still need to win on the ground. Yes, if there are no restrictions on research, the Soviets will beat you in terms of tanks. Then again, if you can beat him in the skies, you can flood air regions with fighters and CAS/TACs, and grind his divisions to a pulp.

The USN exists to prevent the Soviet Union from getting out of Europe and Asia. You can't really hurt the Soviets with the navy (unless the Soviet player is dumb enough to trade). But the last thing you want are the Soviets conducting Sea Lion.

The problem is that I don't see how the US player is going to stop the Soviet player from occupying Europe with the AI running Germany. The US player would have to be in a position to take Berlin before Germany attacks the Soviet Union. I don't see that happening. And the Soviets have tons of manpower, even if they don't scam manpower from Mass Assault or Mobile Warfare. So, there will be walls of troops covering all ports, coastlines, and possible fronts.

Unless the Soviet player completely fails in the air war, or forgets to put another 3 million men in uniform to cover her coasts, I don't see how the US can prevent the Soviets from seizing enough IC and resources to win by virtue of having more manpower and guns than everyone else combined.

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

Just when I thought everyone had asked every possible question about HOI4, someone comes along and asks about a US versus USSR game. I don't have all the answers, but I will try to give some:

If the USA is allowed to join the war the moment Germany attacks the Soviet Union or when the Soviets attack Finland (or some other target), then we have an interesting situation. Normally, the Soviet Union wants to increase WT to help the Allies mobilize for the war. But if you are planning East versus West, then the Soviet player may not want WT to get high. If WT isn't 100 by the time the Germans initiate Danzig, the US could be facing the problem of being behind in terms of potential mobilization. This occurs in MP games with a human Axis, but now we might be in the unenviable situation of the Soviets wanting to keep WT low to stall the US. If the Soviets forego raising WT and attacking Finland, and Japan never beats China, the USA might find it hard to do everything she wants. Given that Germany is AI, the Soviets should be able to wipe the floor with them faster than the US could get enough assets into Europe.

I'm not even sure what house rules you should use to make the situation fair; once the Soviets occupy Germany, they should have an unassailable advantage in terms of resources and IC..

Hmmm... that's what I thought. What about USA allowed to join the war in 1940 ? Wouldn't it be OP ? Would the soviet be forced to gamble and attack GER asap ?

Aside from nukes, strategic bombers are potent when used properly. You need doctrines researched (strategic destruction, daylight bombing branch), good planes, and enough bombers hitting the same target to make a difference. 200 bombers isn't going to cut it. But 1500-2000 1944 bombers will obliterate air regions over the course of a few weeks if the enemy can't stop them. And if the Soviets occupy Berlin, that's a lot closer to Britain and easier to bomb. You might as well deny those factories to the Soviets.

Even with USA, you can't produce 2000 strat 2000 cas 4000 fighters AND have an army to tame USSR, can you ? I thought strat bombing would deny SOV to reinforce units properly and therefore make them vulnerable to US armies. I never strat bomb in SP (why bombing land you plan to conquer ?) but in this case...


Thx for your advices, actually you confirmed that I should worry a lot and try to negociate better home rules.

 

[Secret Master]

Even with USA, you can't produce 2000 strat 2000 cas 4000 fighters AND have an army to tame USSR, can you ?

You could eventually build all that stuff. I don't know if you could do it by the time the Soviets occupy Europe. Then the Soviets have an IC lead you can't overcome.

I thought strat bombing would deny SOV to reinforce units properly and therefore make them vulnerable to US armies.

Well, if you are bombing the Soviets back to the Stone Age, not only will they have less IC (thanks to bombing), but they have to commit more resources to fighting you in the skies. This takes away from their ability to commit forces to the army. As our current MP game demonstrates, the Soviets don't have infinite IC to throw around. The Soviets outclass me a bit on land (I'm Germany), but the Soviet player sacrificed air doctrines and techs related to air power to get a bigger army than me. The result were situations where the Luftwaffe was shooting down Soviet planes at 2:1 ratios while outnumbered 2:1 by Soviet fighters. It got so bad at one point that the Soviets pulled the air force out of battle and committed to opening a front in Iran (where Luftwaffe air cover is thinner). Too bad I didn't have any STR ready to go. I could have done some serious damage to him or forced him to keep losing planes while trying to stop the bombing.

Hmmm... that's what I thought. What about USA allowed to join the war in 1940 ? Wouldn't it be OP ? Would the soviet be forced to gamble and attack GER asap ?

If the US is allowed in the war in 1940, the Soviet player will probably want to attack Germany sooner.

Again, I think the war will come down to who occupies/annexes more of the Axis before the USA and USSR really get down to killing each other.

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

Hmmm... It seems i'll have to go for the 200% strat bomb strategy then, thx for the advice... The problem is the soviet will have boosted fighters waiting for me. Thx to the lend-lease mechanic, you can get rid of your antique planes when Spanish civil war starts and/or China is attacked by japan. You get enough air xp to build whatever airforce you dream in 1936/37 and save enough to get 1940/1944 top fighters. Well, US morale is dropping already

 

[pheonicia]

Now, I don't do a lot of multiplayer, so maybe my question is terrible, but couldn't the american player use africa to their advantage? With the super low infrastructure in most regions, and natural choke-points in a lot of areas, it seems feasible that the american player could rush into the southern parts of africa before the soviets, and achieve local superiority using naval invasions. The soviet player might have ludicrous numbers of divisions, but they only have so much attention. With control of the seas, an american player could launch invasions at 3 or 4 points across the planet, and at least one should be successful. Then it's just a matter of hit and run, destroying as many divisions as possible before pulling out.

On a separate note, would america be able to join fast enough to protect japan from the soviets? As long as Japan hasn't capitulated, the soviet player has to garrison the entirety of Germany and Italy and use political power on occupation.

 

[Ironside121]

What other ground rules do you have in place? They'll all be important.

The USSR tanks won't be completely invincible to the USA ones- if the USSR player is smart he will definitely funnel his Army XP into Modern Tanks ASAP, and his tanks will have an advantage- but they can still be stopped.

As has already been said- Air Superiority is your best bet. CAS spam will obliterate Soviet Tanks without too much worry. Keep the UK alive for a base of Operations, and maybe occupy Scandinavia if any of them join the Allies.

How skilled is the USSR player? How many buffs with the German AI have? You could just sit there and supply Germany with equipment to bleed down the Soviet manpower. Occupying them yourself can work too, there are pros and cons to both.

I personally as the USA would take out the Axis immediately. Even only in Europe and leaving Japan alive- purely so the USSR has to Garrison Germany to keep resistance down- and it will bleed their PP or their resources. The Soviet navy is nothing to be scared of, so you'll be able to bleed down their convoys if they need to trade for resources too.

If you wanted to take out the Axis completely, giving Soviets most of Germany will be inevitable. But you'll have most of, if not all, of Japan under your control, you can easily bomb most of Eastern Russia from there if you decided to- but do NOT invade from the East, few Victory Points and bugger all infrastructure to advance through. Maybe a small invasion force to distract some Soviet forces, and occupy their Eastern Metal Resources.

If the Soviets have most of Germany, at least you'll have France as an allied territory in Europe. Best place to invade from, but in some ways the worst. Good Infrastructure but a lot of German Air bases, Fighter Range will be very important since you'll probably have to launch fighters from parts of Italy, and maybe the UK to actually get Superiority.

Defend the Raj all you can, if the Soviets get Siam in the peace deal against the Axis, you're in a spot of Rubber Trouble. That means have men ready to occupy Siam ASAP. Soviet controlled Singapore will cripple the Allied rubber supply. If they invade China, don't bother taking it back outside of South China where there are resources. The rest is not worth the cost in my opinion.

As always, the Air War is going to be one of the deciding factors, and you have the advantage in it, especially with the Commonwealth helping you out. But if you see the Soviet's switch to the Air Production focus, I'd start throwing out more Fighter lines ASAP, or at least take the focus yourself.

The Soviet AI will have to garrison all coasts to keep the Commonwealth and their stupid little suicide invasions busy, but that's not a bad thing for you, letting them occupy Scandinavia *might* be a good idea to spread the USSR out a bit.

Early on against Germany, as soon as you can declare war, bomb Germany. Bomb them to the ground. If you can't occupy it and take it yourself you're still going to get 1000 Warscore for bombing, and then leave a destroyed Germany for the Soviets. But even so still occupy what you can in the peace deal because every little bit counts. You can repair all the damage much faster than the USSR.

 

[Meglok]

@Lord KhaZimir
Suggestions:
1) no soviet volunteers, period. Lend lease is ok.
2) soviets may declare on Finland after Germany is at war with Poland. Soviets must annex the desired territory and peace out. If they annex the entirety of Finland all restrictions are off of the USA.
3) Soviets may declare no other offensive wars until at war with a major power. No free purge removals by attacking Persia in 1937 spring.
4) Soviets must take MR pact, East Poland, Baltic, and Bessarabia
5) USA must either be attacked or use a focus to declare war. No getting around the focus restrictions by abusing WT join faction.
6) no Venezuela or other exploits to get the USA into the war.

Try these ground rules and any others you feel necessary. They should get you started towards an East vs West showdown. It may take a couple of runs to find a balance you like. The base game is designed to flow well when you follow the historical paths and systems.

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

Now, I don't do a lot of multiplayer, so maybe my question is terrible, but couldn't the american player use africa to their advantage? With the super low infrastructure in most regions, and natural choke-points in a lot of areas, it seems feasible that the american player could rush into the southern parts of africa before the soviets, and achieve local superiority using naval invasions.

On a separate note, would america be able to join fast enough to protect japan from the soviets? As long as Japan hasn't capitulated, the soviet player has to garrison the entirety of Germany and Italy and use political power on occupation.

I don't think my SOV friend will ever send a division to Africa. Why would he anyway ? I am pretty sure he will fortify his position in Europe and try a sneak move like a coup in mexico or send 200div to Alaska but Africa ?

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

@Lord KhaZimir
Suggestions:
1) no soviet volunteers, period. Lend lease is ok.
2) soviets may declare on Finland after Germany is at war with Poland. Soviets must annex the desired territory and peace out. If they annex the entirety of Finland all restrictions are off of the USA.
3) Soviets may declare no other offensive wars until at war with a major power. No free purge removals by attacking Persia in 1937 spring.
4) Soviets must take MR pact, East Poland, Baltic, and Bessarabia
5) USA must either be attacked or use a focus to declare war. No getting around the focus restrictions by abusing WT join faction.
6) no Venezuela or other exploits to get the USA into the war.

Try these ground rules and any others you feel necessary. They should get you started towards an East vs West showdown. It may take a couple of runs to find a balance you like. The base game is designed to flow well when you follow the historical paths and systems.

1) he doesn't want to rise the world tension so I think my friend will stay with lend-lease anyway
2) If he attacks the peaceful finnish, he deserves to be dowed
3) that's the point of the house rule we made, if he's directly involved in any war, there's no reason I wouldn't be able to do the same (except WT ofc)
4) Can the german player (if there is one) break the MR pact ? I've seen the ai doing it but I didn't see as GER how to do that.
5) I don't plan to dow anybody. I will join the allies the day he's involved in a war, if it's not already too late
6) I never dow Venezuela, even in sp

 

[Meglok]

I don't think my SOV friend will ever send a division to Africa. Why would he anyway ? I am pretty sure he will fortify his position in Europe and try a sneak move like a coup in mexico or send 200div to Alaska but Africa ?

It is an easy invasion move from Dakar to Brazil, and that move can be defended by land based air.

 

[Meglok]

1) he doesn't want to rise the world tension so I think my friend will stay with lend-lease anyway
2) If he attacks the peaceful finnish, he deserves to be dowed
3) that's the point of the house rule we made, if he's directly involved in any war, there's no reason I wouldn't be able to do the same (except WT ofc)
4) Can the german player (if there is one) break the MR pact ? I've seen the ai doing it but I didn't see as GER how to do that.
5) I don't plan to dow anybody. I will join the allies the day he's involved in a war, if it's not already too late
6) I never dow Venezuela, even in sp

A German player can always break the MR pact as long as they have enough units compared to Russia on the Eastern front. The pact only lasts 2 years, and the last 6 months Germany needs at least a 1:2 ratio of battalions on the Eastern Front. Very easy to break by spring of 41, assuming you signed in summer of 39.

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

A German player can always break the MR pact as long as they have enough units compared to Russia on the Eastern front. The pact only lasts 2 years, and the last 6 months Germany needs at least a 1:2 ratio of battalions on the Eastern Front. Very easy to break by spring of 41, assuming you signed in summer of 39.

I saw the AI do it but I didn't see HOW I can do it

 

[Meglok]

I saw the AI do it but I didn't see HOW I can do it

Fire the War with Russia focus which gives you a free war goal and either have enough units on the border to break the mr pact or wait 2 years for it to expire.

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

Fire the War with Russia focus which gives you a free war goal and either have enough units on the border to break the mr pact or wait 2 years for it to expire.

Thx. I guess having 40 width divs doesn't help, does it ?

 

[Meglok]

Thx. I guess having 40 width divs doesn't help, does it ?

Not exactly.
All NAPs (non-aggression pact) work this way:
the 1st 6 months you can't break the NAP;
the 2nd 6 months you need a greater than 2:1 ratio of battalions on the border with them;
the 3rd 6 months you need a greater than 1:1 ratio of battalions on the border with them;
the 4th 6 months you need a greater than 1:2 ratio of battalions on the border with them.
And of course you need an active war goal vs the country.

Note that these are battalions under your control. For example, Romanian units don't count but Romanian expeditionary forces under your control do. Adjacent border means any border of yours OR a member of your alliance that is adjacent with the other signee of the NAP. These NAP rules go back to HOI3, but they are not really clarified in one place anywhere I know of.

And the reason it is battalions is so that someone can't cheese out 1 battalions divisions to match vs 40 width divisions.