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LiberiusX

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I’m pretty bored waiting for WTT. I’m thinking a USA campaign may be fun with certain rules:

Historical on
FDR stays president
No DoW on anyone before December 7, 1941.
Must dedicate 50% of all MIC equipment output to lend lease to Commonwealth, China and USSR until war begins.
No volunteers
Maximum of 90 divisions allowed

Any other ideas? Slider recommendations? Germany seems to always get curb stomped in 1941-2 when I lend lease to USSR.

Maybe Germany should get curb stomped in favor of a strong SOV for an interesting WWIII?
 
Last edited:

dasaard200

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As thou art bound by thy restrictions :
1] CF production through '39, or until 3 full new built Lines (15 CFs) for industrial muscle, then ;
2] Max WF production on 4 of those 5 Lines, maybe 5th goes to infrastructure, port improvements, etc. ;
3] Lend-Lease to the PHILLIPINES to bypass the 90 XX cap, get them down to integrated puppet ASAP !, for that nice (90%local/10% US) manpower use !! ;
4] NAVY ! and CONVOYS !!, to save on manpower ;
5] Lend-Lease priorities : China- guns and trucks, USSR-trucks, Commonwealth- leftovers (everything else) ;
6] Cover all your ports with new troops as they appear slowly (say, 1 at a time in the building cueue) ;
7] Start production lines of everything you are going to make, and build huge stockpiles of each, as more WFs come on-line,add them to pre-existing lines as you need to ; and
8] Don't start Lend-Leasing to foreign countries UNTIL they are at war, your puppet can/should be FLOODED with L-L to raise LOTS of locals . (ocean travel for your West Coast units to Manilla is about 59-65 days)
 

Bendeguz

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We have South African segregation in game at the moment, perhaps something similar could work with the USA? An ongoing political struggle next to all the other labour strikes and the such.

They could have a Political Power maelus to reflect the segregated federal government, and similar for production as war industry was segregated at first, as was the new deal, and when the treat of a March on Washington in 1941 happens the player gets to choose how they react: reform, status quo with potential trouble down the line, or vicious reactionary crackdown. Same for schools and universities so that could affect research.

Similar for recruitment, as the armed forces were not desegregated completely until 1945, before then the Army and Navy had almost zero non-whites, and it was very limited in the army - even then it was more noncombat roles like the Red Ball Express until the late war.

If the player tackles these there could be a stability hit but increased recruitment, research and production, just like we have with South Africa at the moment. If they try too much too fast hey could deal with a civil war, and of course if they decide to go down the Fascist path I do not imagine they would be getting rid of it at all.

Lots of alternate history options :)
 

Naturamix

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We have South African segregation in game at the moment, perhaps something similar could work with the USA? An ongoing political struggle next to all the other labour strikes and the such.

They could have a Political Power maelus to reflect the segregated federal government, and similar for production as war industry was segregated at first, as was the new deal, and when the treat of a March on Washington in 1941 happens the player gets to choose how they react: reform, status quo with potential trouble down the line, or vicious reactionary crackdown. Same for schools and universities so that could affect research.

Similar for recruitment, as the armed forces were not desegregated completely until 1945, before then the Army and Navy had almost zero non-whites, and it was very limited in the army - even then it was more noncombat roles like the Red Ball Express until the late war.

If the player tackles these there could be a stability hit but increased recruitment, research and production, just like we have with South Africa at the moment. If they try too much too fast hey could deal with a civil war, and of course if they decide to go down the Fascist path I do not imagine they would be getting rid of it at all.

Lots of alternate history options :)

I think that from a game-play perspective these ideas are coherent and interesting, but I think one needs to be cautious when including them from a narrative perspective.

Paradox has the very sensible policy of not including any of the racial policies of the totalitarian states in the game. Therefore if you include mechanics relating only to the injustices committed in democratic countries you run the risk of modelling a rather absurd world where only the democratic nations are shown to be internally repressive, which seems somewhat twisted.
 

hkrommel

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Make sure you limit ship building as well. It's far too easy if you plan ahead, so I'd follow historical shipbuilding for capital ships at least.
 

LiberiusX

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Make sure you limit ship building as well. It's far too easy if you plan ahead, so I'd follow historical shipbuilding for capital ships at least.

According to this site: https://ww2-weapons.com/us-navy-in-late-1941/

  • 17 battleships (+15 under construction): 1 Arkansas (1912), 2 New York class (1914), 2 Nevada class (1916), 2 Pennsylvania class (1916), 3 New Mexico class (1917-1919), 2 California class (1920-1921), 3 Colorado class (1921-1923), 2 North Carolina class (1941)
  • 7 aircraft carriers (+11 under construction): 2 Lexington class (1927), 1 Ranger (1933), 3 Yorktown class (1937-1941), 1 Wasp (1941)
  • 18 heavy cruisers (+8 Baltimore class under construction): 2 Pensacola class (1929-1930), 6 Northampton class (1929-1930), 2 Indianapolis class (1932-1933), 7 Astoria class (1934-1937), 1 Wichita (1939)
  • 19 light cruisers (+32 Cleveland class under construction): 10 Omaha class, 7 Brooklyn class, 2 Helena class
  • 6 anti-aircraft cruisers (4 in service, 2 nearly ready)
  • 171 destroyers (+188 Benson, Livermore and Fletcher class under construction): 1 Allen (1917), 71 Flush-Deckers (1918-1922), 8 Farragut class (1934-1935), 12 Mahan class (1936-1937), 8 Porter class (1936-1937), 5 Somers class (1938-1939), 2 Dunlop class (1938), 19 Gridley class (1938-1940), 38 Benson and Livermore class (1940-1941)
  • 114 submarines (+79 Gato class under construction): 8 ‘O’ class (1918), 19 ‘R’ class (1918-1919), 38 ‘S’ class (1919-1924), 3 Barracuda class (1924-1925), 1 Argonaut minelayer (1928), 2 Nautilus class (1930), 1 Dolphin (1932), 2 Cachalot class (1934), 10 ‘P’ class (1935-1937), 16 ‘new S’ class (1937-1939), 12 ‘T’ class (1941-1942)

Seems reasonable.
 

Vampiresoap

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I still honestly don't get why the US didn't fortify the Philippines and used it as a staging ground to invade Japan...Both in real life and in game. I did that and "liberated" Japan in like 1940.
 

walt526

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I still honestly don't get why the US didn't fortify the Philippines and used it as a staging ground to invade Japan...Both in real life and in game. I did that and "liberated" Japan in like 1940.

They couldn't hold the Philippines when WWII broke out, despite their best efforts. The US were in the process of re-taking the Philippines when the nuke attacks ended the war, but it was incredibly bloody (80k Allied deaths and over 400k Japanese deaths in the 1944-45 Philippines Campaign).
 

Aeon221

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I still honestly don't get why the US didn't fortify the Philippines and used it as a staging ground to invade Japan...Both in real life and in game. I did that and "liberated" Japan in like 1940.

You were able to do that because you are playing a video game and therefore are not subject to any of the constraints reality imposes.

Also, the Philippines were fortified. It turns out that in real life infiltration, shock and bypass are all effective methods for rendering fortifications irrelevant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_Campaign_(1941–42)
 

Ryousan2k

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I think that two factors should diversify the USA: How to implement the New Deal and how are the Jim Crow Laws implemented.

*If say you choose to rely heavily on state interventionism while implementing Economic Reforms you will geta rise on Communist Support which in turn might open up the path for Earl Browder to win the 1936 Election and Hello to Commie USA. If you choose a less invansive intervision you follow the historical part or you choose to rely on corporativism and begin your descent into darkness...

*The severity in which the Jim Crow Laws enforced (or not enforced at all) would determine how much manpower you can draw from the Black AMerican Population: If you choose to fully embrace segregaationism you will receive a hefty bonus of indutrial effience at the cost of man power(and possibly some international reputation). If you launch a rather shy challenge to Jim Crow (as happened during the war) you will get some manpower and will not incur into major penalties. However if you choose to dismantle Jim Crow and fully embrace the CIvil RIght movement you will also give some momentum to the "Dixiecratic" Momvement which historically formed in 1948...which can have soem dire implications...
 

Vampiresoap

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They couldn't hold the Philippines when WWII broke out, despite their best efforts. The US were in the process of re-taking the Philippines when the nuke attacks ended the war, but it was incredibly bloody (80k Allied deaths and over 400k Japanese deaths in the 1944-45 Philippines Campaign).

Yeah, but why couldn't the US prepare for WW2? Like, even if they didn't expect a war with Japan, they still should've prepared for it. They could've stationed so many marines in the Philippines and just punched the Japanese right back after Pearl Harbor. Come to think of it, if they did that, the attack on Pearl Harbor could probably have been avoided because then the Japanese would've considered the reprisal afterwards too high to accept.

Edit: Also keep in mind that even before all that, the US had already repeatedly asked Japan to stop invading China. Failing that, they started embargoing Japan...Like, what were the US admirals even expecting to happen? Why were their hands so tied? It's almost unthinkable that the US military was that unprepared for war.
 

LiberiusX

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*The severity in which the Jim Crow Laws enforced (or not enforced at all) would determine how much manpower you can draw from the Black AMerican Population: If you choose to fully embrace segregaationism you will receive a hefty bonus of indutrial effience at the cost of man power(and possibly some international reputation). If you launch a rather shy challenge to Jim Crow (as happened during the war) you will get some manpower and will not incur into major penalties. However if you choose to dismantle Jim Crow and fully embrace the CIvil RIght movement you will also give some momentum to the "Dixiecratic" Momvement which historically formed in 1948...which can have soem dire implications...

I'm with @Naturamix on this. If you simulate Jim Crow for the sake of accuracy and balance, you must by extension simulate much worse things done by other countries that we aren't even allowed to discuss on these forums.

Besides, I'm not really sure how this is relevant to me asking for suggestions on how to make more challenging house rules for a USA campaign in the current version.
 

princeseth

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Yeah, but why couldn't the US prepare for WW2? Like, even if they didn't expect a war with Japan, they still should've prepared for it. They could've stationed so many marines in the Philippines and just punched the Japanese right back after Pearl Harbor. Come to think of it, if they did that, the attack on Pearl Harbor could probably have been avoided because then the Japanese would've considered the reprisal afterwards too high to accept.

Edit: Also keep in mind that even before all that, the US had already repeatedly asked Japan to stop invading China. Failing that, they started embargoing Japan...Like, what were the US admirals even expecting to happen? Why were their hands so tied? It's almost unthinkable that the US military was that unprepared for war.
US could not prepare because of the isolation policy plus the American people didnt want to go to war especially in Europe ... changing conscription laws would be difficult to pass ... so Roosevelt had to find a way to 'persuade' his countrymen to go to war ... imho he did brilliantly ... we all know the outcome ...
 

Bendeguz

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Therefore if you include mechanics relating only to the injustices committed in democratic countries you run the risk of modelling a rather absurd world where only the democratic nations are shown to be internally repressive, which seems somewhat twisted.

I completely understand your concern, I have heard many stories about how many multiplayer games are awash with anti-Semitic jokes, and Paradox wants to avoid another Six Days in Fallujah style controversy. But for now apparently HOI4 does not have the courage to show what Call of Duty: World at War could, or heck, the Valkyria Chronicles :rolleyes:

I'm not saying I certain numbered unit outside of Harbin, or the events discussed at a certain conference by a Berlin lake, have to be included. But genocide and discrimination are not quite the same. Look, the fact is that HOI4 already includes exactly the kind of discrimination we are talking about:

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And of course the poster child for racial discrimination represented in HOI4:

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That is A LOT of ethnic+racial and religious discrimination represented in the game ALREADY. These are the very kind of game mechanics that would be relevant to the USA.

Some people thing this is awful, I think it makes the game better.

As far as the imbalance goes, that is a different story - I actually agree with you: Lets face it, Nazi Germany should probably have a modifier about their ideological recruitment policy, as while they took over some 35 million Poles after 1939, some in German core territory,' astonishingly few if any were actually recruited for any military or paramilitary purpose. Arguably, that is also an element with the Japanese military with Koreans and Formosans, although it is a bit more complicated there. Either way, there is room for improvement and further discussion.

If you choose to fully embrace segregaationism you will receive a hefty bonus of indutrial effience at the cost of man power

An interesting idea, I like your other points :), but I think we should take a look at Roosevelt's Executive Order 8802, and this quote directly:

"There is evidence available that needed workers have been barred from industries engaged in defense production solely because of considerations of race, creed, color or national origin, to the detriment of workers' morale and of national unity."

According to Paula Pfeffer in A. Philip Randolph, Pioneer of the Civil Rights Movement in the lead up to the war as the defence industry in the US exploded, it was white Americans who benefited: blacks- even skilled workers with proper training - were denied employment opportunities and access to government training programs. Well... aside from janitor positions...

So if anything, the only benefit for keeping things as they are is to keep a lid on the so called 'Dixiecrats,' but even then you risk civil upheaval: Executive Order 8802 only got signed because by 1941 the March on Washington Movement (MOWM) had formed and 50,000 to 100,000 black Americans were ready to take a stroll up to capitol hill - and that was strictly without Communist support.

It is remarkable for an outsider to look on that period and see just how tense and volatile that period was in American social history. I know some are reluctant because of current 'tensions,' but a wealth of alternate history and interwar dynamic politics game-play are lost if such history is deliberately obscured.
 

Naturamix

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That is A LOT of ethnic+racial and religious discrimination represented in the game ALREADY. These are the very kind of game mechanics that would be relevant to the USA.

You are correct (in some of those examples, not all), there are already some of those mechanics in the game.
I am fighting a losing battle, that doesn't make me wrong. I don't want more of those mechanics even if there already are a few.
 

GDSPathe1

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Yeah, but why couldn't the US prepare for WW2? Like, even if they didn't expect a war with Japan, they still should've prepared for it. They could've stationed so many marines in the Philippines and just punched the Japanese right back after Pearl Harbor. Come to think of it, if they did that, the attack on Pearl Harbor could probably have been avoided because then the Japanese would've considered the reprisal afterwards too high to accept.

Edit: Also keep in mind that even before all that, the US had already repeatedly asked Japan to stop invading China. Failing that, they started embargoing Japan...Like, what were the US admirals even expecting to happen? Why were their hands so tied? It's almost unthinkable that the US military was that unprepared for war.

Oh yeah, the reason why US Battleships were at Pearl? FDR ordered it the previous commander of the PACFLEET opposed the move and got sacked. As for why the US didn't actively build fortifications or stationed a ton of troops there well there are three reasons one Philippine independence was coming in 1945 and no one particularly wanted to invest in bases that only be handed back to the Filipinos following independence, two The US army and USMC back then were really small and underfunded to put this into perspective to quote Calbear on ah.com

Well, when you are a major industrialized nation and you have to train troops to deal with tank attacks by hanging a sign on a 2 1/2 ton truck that says "tank" and use wooden mock-up of machine guns since you don't have enough to equip active forces AND have them for training needs, that qualify as poorly prepared.

Same goes for a major naval power, with long coastlines on two oceans, overseas possessions, and a Canal they re quite fond of that doesn't actually test torpedoes with live fire because the explosions wreck the torpedoes and those damned things are expensive.


As it was the Philipines were still the recipients of a major buildup of US forces, for instance, the two armor battalions on Luzon at December 7th didn't exist in 1940 and there are a large number of fortifications planned to be built following the Two Ocean navy act that unfortunately couldn't be finished on time. Third of all the USN regarded the Islands as indefensible the War Departments War Plan Orange III the defacto plan for war against Japan (thank god for the rainbows) expected the Philipines to fall within ~6 months there were damn close to the actual date and had Dugout Doug not screwed up the entire defensive plan probably could have held on longer than expected. The USNs primary Pacific base was Pearl pearl to Luzon is some six thousand miles and after Pearl well, the USN was in no position to be supporting any Phib ops until the Japanese had burned themselves out


 

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I once thought about this as a way to play a quick relaxing SP game for once and not always just competitive MP.

Then I realised Japan in SP will always join the war prematurely without even attacking the US. So much for immersion and plausibility.

At least the previous HoIs got the start of the Pacific Theatre somewhat right, but even that is too much to ask from PDX with HoI4.

But who gives a tosh about a historical Pearl Harbor when you can have a Guangxi Clique focus tree, right?
 

pvt.conners

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US could not prepare because of the isolation policy plus the American people didnt want to go to war especially in Europe ... changing conscription laws would be difficult to pass ... so Roosevelt had to find a way to 'persuade' his countrymen to go to war ... imho he did brilliantly ... we all know the outcome ...
What exactly are you trying to imply here?
 
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