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Oerdin

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In the grand campaign the US population starts at 17.5 million which is historically about 500,000 to high. The problem is historically the US population grew at a very rapid rate which is very difficult to reproduce in game; for example in 1860 the US population was 31.5 million yet in Vicky it is very hard to even get 25 million by 1860.

I'm thinking the US population growth rate needs to get bumped up so that we can better reproduce historical population figures.
 
Last edited:

OHgamer

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Oerdin said:
In the grand campaign the US population starts at 17.5 million which is historically about 500,000. The problem is historically the US population grew at a very rapid rate which is very difficult to reproduce; for example in 1860 the US population was 31.5 million yet in Vicky it is very hard to even get 25 million by 1860.

I'm thinking the US population growth rate needs to get bumped up so that we can better reproduce historical population figures.

Victoria is not designed to be strictly historical in terms of immigration numbers - rather it is designed with the goal of capturing the broad themes of the period.

This means the USA will get large numbers of immigrants during the course of the game, but they may be more than or less than the historical levels in any given period within a game depending on each individual game's dynamic and the actions of the US player, and the geographic distribution will be nowhere near historical because the game uses universal factors for determining what is attractive for a migrant to settle in, not historical factors. thus the US Midwest in Victoria tends to remain an empty hollow shell, while California and Alaska are immigrant magnets due to their large number of provinces and their closeness in terms of number of provinces separating, from the eastern hemisphere.

In other words, you will never get perfectly historical numbers or distribution in Victoria, it simply does not work that way. As lead developer of the VIP mod, I know from experience that attempting to make US immigration historical is currently more an exercise in futility than a potential goal.
 

Orm

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Oerdin said:
In the grand campaign the US population starts at 17.5 million which is historically about 500,000.
500.000? :confused:
The problem is historically the US population grew at a very rapid rate which is very difficult to reproduce; for example in 1860 the US population was 31.5 million yet in Vicky it is very hard to even get 25 million by 1860.

I'm thinking the US population growth rate needs to get bumped up so that we can better reproduce historical population figures.

Much of it was through immigration, which is possible to get in Victoria too. ;)
 

Oerdin

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I'm saying the population starts half a million to high yet immediately falls well behind historic rates. If Boer growth rates can be so high in the game then surely we can bump up the yankee population growth rates so that we can at least roughly model historic population growth even if immigration patterns won't work in historical ways.
 

Gen. Skobelev

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Oerdin said:
I'm saying the population starts half a million to high yet immediately falls well behind historic rates. If Boer growth rates can be so high in the game then surely we can bump up the yankee population growth rates so that we can at least roughly model historic population growth even if immigration patterns won't work in historical ways.

Have you played several GCs with USA and always failed to achieve historical population? If the US growth rate is bumped up, it will easily lead to overpowered USA.
 

OHgamer

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Oerdin said:
I'm saying the population starts half a million to high yet immediately falls well behind historic rates. If Boer growth rates can be so high in the game then surely we can bump up the yankee population growth rates so that we can at least roughly model historic population growth even if immigration patterns won't work in historical ways.

The problem is that it all depends on individual game dynamics. Some games will have higher than average immigration, especially after 1880, some lower than average. If you boost the pop-growth rate higher, those games that end up with higher immigration will end up with exceedingly high US populations by the end.

Boer growth rates are higher because the universal dynamics regarding immigration make the Boer republics even less historically attractive than they were. Again its an issue where the game creates one set of standards for all immigration worldwide, then gives bonuses where needed to those areas that do not do as well under the univeral rules - the USA already gets a major bonus to immigration simply for being USA that other nations do not get.

Get rid of slavery, increase plurality, expand to the the Pacific, and watch immigrants flood in, especially after 1880. but in the first half of the game, US immigration in Revolutions does tend to be somewhat lower than historical - the difference is made up after midgame by usually higher than historical immigration levels. The slower early start is mainly due to the existence of slavery which is a major turn-off for determining immigration, and since slavery is determined on the national level, not the state level, its effect is to depress US immigration in game until the abolition of slavery with the end of the civil war.
 

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OHgamer said:
Victoria is not designed to be strictly historical in terms of immigration numbers - rather it is designed with the goal of capturing the broad themes of the period.

This means the USA will get large numbers of immigrants during the course of the game, but they may be more than or less than the historical levels in any given period within a game depending on each individual game's dynamic and the actions of the US player, and the geographic distribution will be nowhere near historical because the game uses universal factors for determining what is attractive for a migrant to settle in, not historical factors. thus the US Midwest in Victoria tends to remain an empty hollow shell, while California and Alaska are immigrant magnets due to their large number of provinces and their closeness in terms of number of provinces separating, from the eastern hemisphere.

In other words, you will never get perfectly historical numbers or distribution in Victoria, it simply does not work that way. As lead developer of the VIP mod, I know from experience that attempting to make US immigration historical is currently more an exercise in futility than a potential goal.

My modding and testing indicates that alaska and california actually get immigrants based almost entirely on gold RGOs. State size, LRs, etc don't seem to have an effect. Plurality, Government, and RGOs are the factors to watch.

edit: factories are also important. a state with factories and gold will get immigration over a state with only factories or only gold.
 

unmerged(56690)

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The problem is the U.S. gains too much population through immigration and too little through natural growth. The population the U.S. would have had with no immigration in real life vs. in game are significantly off. In real life, the U.S. often restricted immigration, especially those easily assimilated (ingame) russian, turkish, and chinese pops, but with a human player, the USA will be an immigrant magnet from the 1840s on. On the other hand, whenever the human plays another immigrant based country, he'll end up stealing most of the immigrants and completely cripple the USA.
 

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I've actually never had a game where I haven't reached or exceeded historical population figures. In fact, sometimes I've seriously exceeded them (had 45m in 1860). Almost always by the post-1880 immigration influx I've got some areas which exceed their population today (New York City province with 14m in 1905 =O!).

Surprisingly, I follow a different route than most people seem to with their immigration bonanzas (all sorts of social reforms to attract immigrants, etc etc), rather keeping plurality high as possible (State and Government and make sure at least 50% of your population is liberal, viola, plurality sky-rockets), keeping taxes low (making most of my national income through a low tariff, which I get away with by always pushing exports and keeping imports as low as possible); in fact I was in a situation in my last GC where I had all class taxes below 3% by 1900.

In my last game my population grew from 100m to 130m between 1900 and 1910. That's a population growth rate that we're only starting to match today.
 

Oerdin

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Gen. Skobelev said:
Have you played several GCs with USA and always failed to achieve historical population? If the US growth rate is bumped up, it will easily lead to overpowered USA.

Then maybe multiple national growth rates are to low to reproduce historic population levels. If the growth rates of multiple nationalities were reworked to model historic growth rates then things could still be kept in balance while allowing historic rates to be reproduced.
 

Oerdin

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OHgamer said:
The problem is that it all depends on individual game dynamics. Some games will have higher than average immigration, especially after 1880, some lower than average. If you boost the pop-growth rate higher, those games that end up with higher immigration will end up with exceedingly high US populations by the end.

I respect you but reject this. The goal should be that the average game reproduces approximate historic populations. Of course, players should be free to explore alternative pathes but the gold metal test of the system is if it can reproduce approximate historic values and not reproduce history each time. My argument is that the majority of the time the game system does not reproduce historic population growth rates. Not even approximately.
 

Oerdin

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xchen08 said:
The problem is the U.S. gains too much population through immigration and too little through natural growth.

Summed up in a nut shell. If places like Iowa had higher natural growth rates and the US as a whole had lower immigration rates then we could better model US population distribution.

Doing this will enable other immigration countries (Canada, Australia, Latin America, etc) to attract immigrants without having the US suck the old world dry. The solution is to increase the yankee growth rate while reducing America's hard coded immigration bonus.
 

Ivan Rogov

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Starting a VIP GC as France, I reached 130,000,000 by 1935. Starting as the U.S. in Vanilla Ricky 1881, I reached 150,000,000 by 1910 (IIRC) something that wasn't done historically until around 1950. The population may start out smaller, but once you get those modifiers firing and especially if you invest in health care (even Trinkets) the numbers will explode by 3/4 game.
 

Gen. Skobelev

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Has the US growth rate been changed since 1.3 patch? I had wildly inflated population figures for US there when I played it rather extensively but I don't remember much from later US games. Perhaps I should start one...
 

Enzo

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do we know the exact formula that set up growth rate ? I know this is linked with pop_growth_mod in .inc files and life rating in province.csv but don't know how exactly ? Also, how health care influence these numbers ?
I tend to agree that growth rate is perhaps a bit too low, but this is very subjective and difficult to analyze in game.
 

OHgamer

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I do not know the exact contributions but there is a whole series of factors including

1) base pop_growth_rate (which can be tweaked in the game files)
2) life rating in a given province (the higher the province's life rating the faster the population in that province will grow)
3) ability of POPs to get life needs (if the lowest POP classes can not get their life needs, they will begin to die off and shrink in size)
4) technology advances that boost the base life rating of the country as a whole
5) state vs colony - i'm still testing this to prove for a fact, but it does seem that colonial POP growth rates are lower, all other things equal, than state POP growth rates
6) the existence of specific reforms such as health care, which at higher levels will boost POP growth (better health care = less infant mortality, longer life for POPs etc)

and to Oerdin - if you look at the range of responses in this thread you'll see that in fact there is a very wide variety of population results, most of which tend to be on the high side. Victoria is not a historical simulator, it is a game set within a historical era that attempts to capture the broad themes of the period. For the United States, this means having huge waves of immigrants arrive that allow the USA to be transformed from a second-rate regional power at the start of the game to a true global power by the end. Attempting to portray even more historical results than this would have required the development of separate algorhythms for immigration for the USA (and thus likely other countries, why should the USA be the only one to get special treatment to try and model historical patterns) that would have resulted in a great deal more computation of statistics each game day.

And considering that Victoria is designed to run at a 128 MB RAM (the game was designed back in 2002, when that was considered the global standard low-end level of RAM in a computer) adding much more to the game engine to compute on a regular basis, given how slow the game already runs on low-end systems, would probably be impossible to achieve and still keep the game within its base minimum prerequisites.

For the overall game purposes based on the game engine Victoria has, what Victoria reproduces for the USA in terms of population growth and immigration is more than sufficient to capture the nature of the historical transformation of the USA that happened in the 19th and early 20th century. The broad themes are there for the player to use, even if the specific historical details of how that process worked are not able to be depicted.

Now, should the gods of Paradox decide to revamp the Victoria timeperiod into a new game title based on the new game engine and the massive increase in minimum computing power that has occurred over the past five years since the design of Victoria, then perhaps greater emphasis on trying to recreate more clearly historical patterns could be attempted. Paradox has learened a great deal over the past five years in terms of game design, as well as what works well and what needs improvement in Victoria, so a redesign of the title would definitely be able to draw upon a mountain of experience of gamers over the past four years since the release of Victoria commercially in 2003. And with the much greater power of the average personal computer today in 2007 compared to when Victoria was designed in 2002, the ability to be able to handle more complex data for the game will also be significantly expanded.
 

unmerged(47028)

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Oerdin said:
In the grand campaign the US population starts at 17.5 million which is historically about 500,000 to high. The problem is historically the US population grew at a very rapid rate which is very difficult to reproduce in game; for example in 1860 the US population was 31.5 million yet in Vicky it is very hard to even get 25 million by 1860.

I'm thinking the US population growth rate needs to get bumped up so that we can better reproduce historical population figures.

By no means US population growth rate needs to get bumped up. US ends up with 200+ million everytime. I think population growth in the game is busted too much. It must be changed by half at least.
 

Dietmar1982

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In my experience all european countries seems to outperform its historical figures.

As Austria + the southern German states, my population is just short of 100 mil in 1891. thats ten mil higher than the historical figures from both AH and the whole of Germany combined. Not just the southern parts.

The UK + Ireland has a population of 70 mil. The historical figures i've seen are more like 40 mil.


So at least the european countries need a cutback.
the US pop is 70 in game, is that high or low. compared to history?
 

Eärendil

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Dietmar1982 said:
So at least the european countries need a cutback.
the US pop is 70 in game, is that high or low. compared to history?

It is pretty accurate, just slightly higher.