IF u try inviting them as the UK early they will say no. IF they are attacked by Japan, they're easy to get in
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IF u try inviting them as the UK early they will say no. IF they are attacked by Japan, they're easy to get in
I know, I know, I was just providing another example. I hoped the "Still, thats only 2 examples
" would show I wasn't bothered by played induced weirdness Still one thing I and, it seems, a few others find odd is that a non axis Japan going on a rampage can make the US more likely to DoW Germany. eg
1938. After long rampage a non axis Japan DoWs the US. The US's war entry is now 100.
1939. Germany DoWs Poland. France and Britain DoW Germany. Britain invites the US to join the Allies. Since US WE=100 they say yes.
This seems bad as the US is punishing Germany for Japans actions even though they're not allied.
However, thinking further on this, it doen't seem to be much of a problem. It can be explained as war with Japan shows the US that isolationism doesn't work so they should help out friendly countries.
Think of it as the citizenry of the USA and their preparedness for war.
The more they hear about evil aggression going on in the world, the more they want to declare war on...somebody.
Just look at how things are today. You dont really need a good reason to go to war with your target, just a reason and have someone rev you up enough.
Thus, the aggression of the Japanese prepares the people of the US to join the world in ending tryanny, the US government then judges that this fight is best prosecuted first against the Germans (It doesnt matter that they are not in a formal "Axis of Evil" together if we just say they are).
You'd be amazed at the effect of propaganda.
I am...constantly.
My Aussie 2c
The more they hear about evil aggression going on in the world, the more they want to declare war on...somebody.
Just look at how things are today. You dont really need a good reason to go to war with your target, just a reason and have someone rev you up enough.
Thus, the aggression of the Japanese prepares the people of the US to join the world in ending tryanny, the US government then judges that this fight is best prosecuted first against the Germans (It doesnt matter that they are not in a formal "Axis of Evil" together if we just say they are).
You'd be amazed at the effect of propaganda.
I am...constantly.
My Aussie 2c
Originally posted by Darkrenown
I know, I know, I was just providing another example. I hoped the "Still, thats only 2 examples
Still one thing I and, it seems, a few others find odd is that a non axis Japan going on a rampage can make the US more likely to DoW Germany. eg
1938. After long rampage a non axis Japan DoWs the US. The US's war entry is now 100.
1939. Germany DoWs Poland. France and Britain DoW Germany. Britain invites the US to join the Allies. Since US WE=100 they say yes.
This seems bad as the US is punishing Germany for Japans actions even though they're not allied.
However, thinking further on this, it doen't seem to be much of a problem. It can be explained as war with Japan shows the US that isolationism doesn't work so they should help out friendly countries.
Germany and Japan tend to ally nowadays anyway making this quite moot.
And what if they dont ???
Because you can bet I will never ally with Japan as Germany or Germany as Japan. Currently in SP this thing can seems moot. But tomorrow in MP that will be a real problem.
You have the beta of the game right now, we have to wait for the release. Answer us:
Is it at all possible to reach the historical situation in game ? USA neutral in late '41 with Germany deep into Russia, France conquered, nearly all europe in facist hand ?
Historicaly USA would have enter war in mid '42 giving the real Axis action, in game when ?
How many months after first Axis mayhem in Europe did USA enter ? Did it always take the initiative ?
Simulating USA is one of the more important thing in any WWII simulation as his enormous industrial capacity is always a gamebreaker if modelled correctly ( divided by 3 in WiF it is already a gamebreaker.... ). Thus the date of the USA active participation is far from being a minor issue.
The only common thing in AAR I read that put some logic in the early DOW is that nearly everytime it is Germany that DOW western allies, wich is nearly unconceivable either in real history. Fighting the west was eventually on the agenda but certainly not as the first thing to do as even Hitler perceived the western allies as a far stronger menace and harder to dispose of than the always quick to fall Russia. But with over-aggressive Germany AI it take teh assault and thus , logically give more incent to USA to fight against them. But will it make a difference at all in the game ?
Can someone answer us ?
Because you can bet I will never ally with Japan as Germany or Germany as Japan. Currently in SP this thing can seems moot. But tomorrow in MP that will be a real problem.
You have the beta of the game right now, we have to wait for the release. Answer us:
Is it at all possible to reach the historical situation in game ? USA neutral in late '41 with Germany deep into Russia, France conquered, nearly all europe in facist hand ?
Historicaly USA would have enter war in mid '42 giving the real Axis action, in game when ?
How many months after first Axis mayhem in Europe did USA enter ? Did it always take the initiative ?
Simulating USA is one of the more important thing in any WWII simulation as his enormous industrial capacity is always a gamebreaker if modelled correctly ( divided by 3 in WiF it is already a gamebreaker.... ). Thus the date of the USA active participation is far from being a minor issue.
The only common thing in AAR I read that put some logic in the early DOW is that nearly everytime it is Germany that DOW western allies, wich is nearly unconceivable either in real history. Fighting the west was eventually on the agenda but certainly not as the first thing to do as even Hitler perceived the western allies as a far stronger menace and harder to dispose of than the always quick to fall Russia. But with over-aggressive Germany AI it take teh assault and thus , logically give more incent to USA to fight against them. But will it make a difference at all in the game ?
Can someone answer us ?
I already have. But here goes again.
The US enters when it is attacked. Otherwise it just sits there.
Now if there is ahistorically huge Axis agression (read player intervention) they will enter on their own. Xure, there are exceptions but that's it. I am yet to play a game where the US acted differently.
Ok BiB but , hat did you call an ahistoricall Axis huge agression ???
Because I just dont saw what huge agression can be made that wasn't historicaly made ? except direct DOW of US, but that will obviously put them into the war.
Are you meaning Japanese agression on only CW or Nederland ? this sound quite logical in fact.
Because I just dont saw what huge agression can be made that wasn't historicaly made ? except direct DOW of US, but that will obviously put them into the war.
Are you meaning Japanese agression on only CW or Nederland ? this sound quite logical in fact.
In my game Axis agression was pretty historical and the US just sat there till they got attacked.
I think some HOI fans are ignoring that HOI is also trying to simulate the economic situation. There's lots of talk of huge industrial capacity, but in 1936 the USA is still in a recession, about to encounter another downturn. There is a lot of capacity, but not as much as the hindsight of 1945 implies, and a substantial section of the existing capacity isn't being used because of the depression; millions of unemployed and empty factories. Also only a tiny proportion of the production is for war material because there's only small armed forces.
The Challenge to someone playing the US is to build the massive war capacity before its attacked. I think its a bigger challenge than many think and they're underestimating the skill of
Roosevelt in doing as well as he did. I found a quote about this "In the years before the war, he had been very conscious of the deficiency in French air power and had attempted to assist her air rearmament" Indeed he knew that by encouraging large French (and British) aircaft orders it would be giving the US air industry a massive boost. So we get the situation that the US administration is still accepting big aircaft orders from France even in 1940 as the collapse began. If you look at US air production figure you'll see big increases in 39/40 mainly the result of this.
So I think its only natural for the US A.I to leave it as late as possible before entering the war, whilst it finds all that capacity. Roosevelt himselft unlike many had very little confidence in the French armies ability to stop the Germans even in 1939. So I'd expect the AI to sit out the fall of France and much else.
As a matter of interest does anyone know how the game replicates Britain having to sell all its foreign currency and assets to get US war material before Lend-Lease came in ?
I think the clues on how to defeat the USA are in the History of the time. I don't know the game mechanics, but I'd guess trying to slow down US rearmament by encouraging internal US decent are possible ways to cripple this potential giant. If the US becomes a battleground for diplomatic and influencing actions from all sorts of powers, we could see some very interesting results. Though I'm not advocating anyone tries to invade it in 1936, as that would be counter productive; the US doesn't really have an army, but you don't have any real means to sustain an invasion force across oceons control by the British and US Navies.
The Challenge to someone playing the US is to build the massive war capacity before its attacked. I think its a bigger challenge than many think and they're underestimating the skill of
Roosevelt in doing as well as he did. I found a quote about this "In the years before the war, he had been very conscious of the deficiency in French air power and had attempted to assist her air rearmament" Indeed he knew that by encouraging large French (and British) aircaft orders it would be giving the US air industry a massive boost. So we get the situation that the US administration is still accepting big aircaft orders from France even in 1940 as the collapse began. If you look at US air production figure you'll see big increases in 39/40 mainly the result of this.
So I think its only natural for the US A.I to leave it as late as possible before entering the war, whilst it finds all that capacity. Roosevelt himselft unlike many had very little confidence in the French armies ability to stop the Germans even in 1939. So I'd expect the AI to sit out the fall of France and much else.
As a matter of interest does anyone know how the game replicates Britain having to sell all its foreign currency and assets to get US war material before Lend-Lease came in ?
I think the clues on how to defeat the USA are in the History of the time. I don't know the game mechanics, but I'd guess trying to slow down US rearmament by encouraging internal US decent are possible ways to cripple this potential giant. If the US becomes a battleground for diplomatic and influencing actions from all sorts of powers, we could see some very interesting results. Though I'm not advocating anyone tries to invade it in 1936, as that would be counter productive; the US doesn't really have an army, but you don't have any real means to sustain an invasion force across oceons control by the British and US Navies.
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well spotted Sytass
all in all an excellent book, the only criticism I have of it is sometimes its hard to figure out where some of the quotes come from, but more likely I'm just being a bit thick.
Obviously he's going to be biased in some way, but I haven't been able to detect much. And he has some excellent stuff on WW2 neutral powers. I hope a lot of people here have the book to hand when they eventually get to play HOI, there must be a lot of good ideas for strategy and diplomacy in it.
Has there been any threads with suggested reading for the Game, I think the scope of the book matches that of what the Paradox guys were trying to do.
Interestingly my copy is a cheap 1994 1200 paperback edition and its called "A World At Arms" He's certainly a gifted academic, did he write it originally in German and then translate it, either way I find it very readable. Excuse my stupidity but how widely available is it ? mainly European or would many of our American HOI enthusiast have easy access to it.
cheers
Rob H
all in all an excellent book, the only criticism I have of it is sometimes its hard to figure out where some of the quotes come from, but more likely I'm just being a bit thick.
Obviously he's going to be biased in some way, but I haven't been able to detect much. And he has some excellent stuff on WW2 neutral powers. I hope a lot of people here have the book to hand when they eventually get to play HOI, there must be a lot of good ideas for strategy and diplomacy in it.
Has there been any threads with suggested reading for the Game, I think the scope of the book matches that of what the Paradox guys were trying to do.
Interestingly my copy is a cheap 1994 1200 paperback edition and its called "A World At Arms" He's certainly a gifted academic, did he write it originally in German and then translate it, either way I find it very readable. Excuse my stupidity but how widely available is it ? mainly European or would many of our American HOI enthusiast have easy access to it.
cheers
Rob H
I've played (up to about 1940) two games with 1.01 NA version where the US entered entered before being attacked.
In my current one with Germany, the Allies DOWed me and then the US did later. I had not even attacked the USSR yet. I had conquered a netral Poland, Netherlans, and Belgium. Japan (not Axis) had foolishly attacked Communist China which was in the Commiturn.