http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_15.htm
Found this an excellent read and thought id share it.
Hannibal
Found this an excellent read and thought id share it.
Hannibal
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Excellent link, as usual, Hannibal. I was trying to tinker with a silly game of WW2 Europe and your post was extremely interesting in that context.
I wish there was a good strategic computer game with something of the detail of Gary Grigsby's Pacific War that would cover all of WW2 in a team PBEM format. Then we could pratice taking gambles like that of General Marshall on the B-29 program, 90 division army, etc.
Till then, exploring the topics in literature is so much easier with Hannibal Barca to point out the way!
I wish there was a good strategic computer game with something of the detail of Gary Grigsby's Pacific War that would cover all of WW2 in a team PBEM format. Then we could pratice taking gambles like that of General Marshall on the B-29 program, 90 division army, etc.
Till then, exploring the topics in literature is so much easier with Hannibal Barca to point out the way!
Isnt there an aussia version of the europa series due soon?, that might be what your in need of.
Hannibal
Hannibal
Well, there is the monster boardgame "World in Flames", but I don't have anywhere to set that up. There is a club about three hours north of me in Portland, Oregon that had it set up a few years back.
There is supposedly an old computer game, perhaps called "High Command", but I don't want to go look for it, though I'm sure it can probably be downloaded from underdogs, a repository of old games.
What I had in mind was something like Grisby's "War in Russia" and "Pacific War" combined with the Med and West fronts. I've proposed that idea directly to 2by3, the firm Grigsby is with now, but they've got about four other projects on WW2 lined up, and I wonder if they will ever get to a total WW2 game.
By the way, got to thinking about the limit on US divisions today. I'm going to do a search for info on black US troops. It was a shame they didn't get their chance in combat. I seem to recall that a cavalry division (the 2nd?) which was mostly composed of well trained black troops was broken up and never sent into combat. Considering the existence of a large population of black Americans and the needs of industry, I guess the strategic leadership wanted to keep them down on the farm and holding temporary jobs in industry untill the white troops came home. We certainly could have fielded a few divisions of black troops if it wasn't for the racist leadership of the US Army of that time.
There is supposedly an old computer game, perhaps called "High Command", but I don't want to go look for it, though I'm sure it can probably be downloaded from underdogs, a repository of old games.
What I had in mind was something like Grisby's "War in Russia" and "Pacific War" combined with the Med and West fronts. I've proposed that idea directly to 2by3, the firm Grigsby is with now, but they've got about four other projects on WW2 lined up, and I wonder if they will ever get to a total WW2 game.
By the way, got to thinking about the limit on US divisions today. I'm going to do a search for info on black US troops. It was a shame they didn't get their chance in combat. I seem to recall that a cavalry division (the 2nd?) which was mostly composed of well trained black troops was broken up and never sent into combat. Considering the existence of a large population of black Americans and the needs of industry, I guess the strategic leadership wanted to keep them down on the farm and holding temporary jobs in industry untill the white troops came home. We certainly could have fielded a few divisions of black troops if it wasn't for the racist leadership of the US Army of that time.
I have a copy of this. It is very good but falls down in the AI department, as do so many games! Ryan Bailey runs a website dedicated to it, and it talks about a second updated version which has been in the works for years, passed on from developer to developer like Road To Moscow. I don't have the URL here, but a good web search should find it.
Originally posted by Warpup
We certainly could have fielded a few divisions of black troops if it wasn't for the racist leadership of the US Army of that time.
The US govt offered Australia some black troops to help defend us in the crisis of 1942, and our govt refused as black troops might offend and alarm the locals! Amazing, to risk your country's existence for racial reasons.
One of the proposed uses for these men was to build a railway from Adelaide to Darwin to support the war effort there and in New Guinea, but due to our refusal to countenance the black troops, it did not happen. The rail went from Adelaide only as far as Alice Springs (pretty much in the dead centre of Australia) and stopped there, and even that bit I think was not done til after the war. They are only getting around to starting the Alice-Darwin link this year!
Mind you Australia still had the racist White Australia policy then (and did up to the 60s).
Another good old WWII strategic game was Clash of Steel. Simplistic but realistic. High Command had a more in depth economic system but the AI was bad and the combat system was weak.
isn't there a computer version of WINF?
and anyway, there are tons of utilities to PBEM board wargames
for the Europa series, go check:
http://www.microteam.fi/jet/
it's freeware, and available for win, Linux and Mac
and anyway, there are tons of utilities to PBEM board wargames
for the Europa series, go check:
http://www.microteam.fi/jet/
it's freeware, and available for win, Linux and Mac
It's at the open beta stage (I'm participating, since it's simply a web download) but the AI is causing a real headache-basically there isn't one yet! In fact, it's looking possible that the first release version won't have one (it'll mainly be for the enthusiasts) with the latest printed news saying the AI'll be available for free download at a later date. This is not what it says on ADG's website, but they don't update that enough.
The open-beta is at-
http://www.marinacci.com/Chris/index.html
I've posted this before, but why not do it again?
Thanks for the link. I played WIF FtF many years ago but not since (came THIS close to wiping out Russia!), I'll be keen to see how the game plays on a PC.
Your welcome, although you'll probably find the computer version a little different to the one you've played (was that fifth edition) since it's based on the Final Edition maps/rules (the ever evolving final edition!
)
I can't stand WINF anyway. tried it, seen a lot of games, and really it feels like a fantasy game to me. Extremely remote connection to WWII.
Good article HB. I have read some of the US WW2 planning along these lines before, and find it interesting to see the work required behind the scenes to put such plans in place. Lots of this stuff isn't usually so glamorous in documentaries, but it's a big part of planning for such a huge national effort.
Other than the time period, the setting, the units, the various special rules (such as Germany having to declare war on Poland on the first turn/impulse.) So why the remote connection?
Of course, this isn't the place for such a discussion......maybe one of us should start a thread OT.
Hannibal.
Thanks......curiously enough, I hadn't bookmarked that link yet.
The game system itself. It's been years since I've played it so I don't remember it very well, but I do remember throwing my arms up in despair every other time a rule was explained to me.
And I've seen games played, and the results.
And I've seen games played, and the results.
Well, with your permission Dark Knight (have you perhaps played the game yourself in one of its' rules incarnations?)
Sire Enaique,
I've seen quite a few game results myself, and although some are strange, I don't see them as being beyond the realms of possibility. After all, we're not likely to have the same "manic" lapses of Hitler, Stalin or even Churchill. Mistakes, yes, outright lunacies no.
There are a few problems with the rules ("shattered" combat results and the effect of the "sea box" system in sea areas on operational possibilities such as Sea Lion, for example) but they're certainly not as outrageous as you suggest. Have you played A3R, by any chance?
Sire Enaique,
I've seen quite a few game results myself, and although some are strange, I don't see them as being beyond the realms of possibility. After all, we're not likely to have the same "manic" lapses of Hitler, Stalin or even Churchill. Mistakes, yes, outright lunacies no.
There are a few problems with the rules ("shattered" combat results and the effect of the "sea box" system in sea areas on operational possibilities such as Sea Lion, for example) but they're certainly not as outrageous as you suggest. Have you played A3R, by any chance?
I vastly prefer 3R. It certainly is more abstract, but in this game, the strategies that work are, if not always historical, at least logical given the historical realities.
Although most of the games I've played were 4th ed, I've actually played 5th ed playtest rules once (nice game) and A3R twice, both very disappointing games as they both ended in fall, 1939 upon Axis forfeit: some people can't read the rules... so I can't really say I know the game. I've heard that some really strange things happened.
My memory of WINF is one of a game that just doesn't feel "right". Sure the production rules are great (though the units you get are way too random: a powerful infantry corps in real life is one with lots of artillery, armor, AA, AT and engineer support, not one with which you were lucky), but as you pointed out the naval rules are (IMHO) worthless. The combat system may be acceptable for Europe, but not for the PTO (I must admit I've never played Rising Sun, so that one may also have the same problems).
Moreover, I feel it is strongly biased in favor of the Axis.
And the map (well, the one I remember) is just as nice as the other ADG game I know, EIA (THAT one's great), that is to say throwupable upon. And the counters suck. And I really should have some dinner because those five martinis are getting to my head
Although most of the games I've played were 4th ed, I've actually played 5th ed playtest rules once (nice game) and A3R twice, both very disappointing games as they both ended in fall, 1939 upon Axis forfeit: some people can't read the rules... so I can't really say I know the game. I've heard that some really strange things happened.
My memory of WINF is one of a game that just doesn't feel "right". Sure the production rules are great (though the units you get are way too random: a powerful infantry corps in real life is one with lots of artillery, armor, AA, AT and engineer support, not one with which you were lucky), but as you pointed out the naval rules are (IMHO) worthless. The combat system may be acceptable for Europe, but not for the PTO (I must admit I've never played Rising Sun, so that one may also have the same problems).
Moreover, I feel it is strongly biased in favor of the Axis.
And the map (well, the one I remember) is just as nice as the other ADG game I know, EIA (THAT one's great), that is to say throwupable upon. And the counters suck. And I really should have some dinner because those five martinis are getting to my head