As an aside, I'm not really an expert to the history of the city, but shouldn't Chongqing in China also be Urban?
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GrimReaper said:
London, because it was the target of numerous bombing raids on the city itself; Leningrad, because Hitler for the most part did not want to get involved in city fighting in it but would rather have starved it to death(this give you this option too); Moscow, because there would have been fighting inside of the city... it had been quickly fortified with anti tank ditches, MG positions, etc. for fighting inside the city.
So I can see why they made these cities urban... remember these are just arguments, they aren't the concrete reasons why.
Paris is a pretty huge province in HoI 2, one argument for not making it urban 
. But like Kriegspieler said, change it if yer dont like it. I love how theyve done Stalingrad, btw . Should make for very sexy and interesting modding of the battle of, IMO.
. But like Kriegspieler said, change it if yer dont like it. I love how theyve done Stalingrad, btw . Should make for very sexy and interesting modding of the battle of, IMO.
Disgustoid said:
I think they could just surrond it then. If you got beat back to Paris you are in mucho trouble anyway and are not likely to beat them back... wouldn't make much of a difference IMO.
Well, if I may contribute a little here. I'm reading these forum very often, but I don't write often.
For San Francisco, I agree it shouldn't be urban due to the size of the province.
For Paris, well France is much more detailled than the US, so the Paris province has quite the size the city itself IMHO. Moreover, I've seen a documentaries on a french channel some month ago for the 60 years of the liberation of Paris saying that Hitler ordered german troop in Paris to burn the city an make guerilla fights in it, but the leader in place disobeid and left the city intact. So it "should" have been fight in the city.
Now how could we handle the preservation of Paris ?
Someone has said that it would make it harder for Germany to take France. Why not create an event that would trigger when the germans are closing on Paris (neighboring provinces) asking the french whenever he wants to withdraw or fight in the city. If he choose the first option, then something must be done to force it (like a event several days after removing the Division still in the province, or putting temporarly Infra to 0, I dunno). If he choose to fight, it should lower the victory points an IC of the province, and maybe add some dissent.
They should be a similar event for the retake of Paris by the Allies.
What do you think ?
For San Francisco, I agree it shouldn't be urban due to the size of the province.
For Paris, well France is much more detailled than the US, so the Paris province has quite the size the city itself IMHO. Moreover, I've seen a documentaries on a french channel some month ago for the 60 years of the liberation of Paris saying that Hitler ordered german troop in Paris to burn the city an make guerilla fights in it, but the leader in place disobeid and left the city intact. So it "should" have been fight in the city.
Now how could we handle the preservation of Paris ?
Someone has said that it would make it harder for Germany to take France. Why not create an event that would trigger when the germans are closing on Paris (neighboring provinces) asking the french whenever he wants to withdraw or fight in the city. If he choose the first option, then something must be done to force it (like a event several days after removing the Division still in the province, or putting temporarly Infra to 0, I dunno). If he choose to fight, it should lower the victory points an IC of the province, and maybe add some dissent.
They should be a similar event for the retake of Paris by the Allies.
What do you think ?
Paris was build with the army in mind to quell revolts easily, therefore it should NOT be urban.
I would prefer a system where urban war happens after a province has had a long battle time.After all was Stalingrad really that big and how do you know that London would fight harder than Manchester? they don't call them all down there "southern softies" for nothing.
spizzer said:
Well not exactly, he ordered Paris to be destroyed and many buildings(historical buildings for te most part) were wired but the, for lack of better term, mayor of Paris wouldn't do it. There weren't any plans to try and turn it into a ravaged fortress and fight guerilla warfare inside of it.
Fiendix said:
Good call.
Maybe there should be an 'urban' and a 'city' terrain. City could be less dense (Paris, Manila, Danzig etc) and leave Urban to the large, dense areas already labled as such. Perhaps a though for HOI3
Has someone said Manilla? I recall reading somewhere that this was the urban area that experienced the most fighting, casualties, or something like that in WW2. Not sure where I read this though. . .
There was definately heavy fighting here with the typical fighting to the death of the Japanese and house to house combat but i don't know figure comparison to other battles like Stalingrad or Berlin
i dont think that Rome will be a city.
because:
1-the terrain in Italy is just now very difficult to cross (they're almost all montains)
2-Rome was declared as an open city (No garrison), to prevent the destruction of herself and her monuments
Paris will not be also: the province is too big and Napoleon III structured it as a regular, with open grounds and large streets cities.
Anyway, i think that there will be more Germany's Cities: someone remembers the Zitadel Operation?
because:
1-the terrain in Italy is just now very difficult to cross (they're almost all montains)
2-Rome was declared as an open city (No garrison), to prevent the destruction of herself and her monuments
Paris will not be also: the province is too big and Napoleon III structured it as a regular, with open grounds and large streets cities.
Anyway, i think that there will be more Germany's Cities: someone remembers the Zitadel Operation?
There is still some urbanity in Paris despite the wide streets. It is still a very dense city with controlling avenues of approach. It is debatable enough though that i could live with it either way
Wether a province is to big or not is a "no arguement", the provinces have been constructed after what they wanted as urban areas. They could easily have changed that if they wanted.
You guys checking this sort of thing do know that you can see the entire map in the demo by going inot the ardennes.,eug file and removing the section:
What fascinates me is that some provinces have province-specific pictures. Have a look at Shanghai!
Code:
map = {
no = all
yes = 48
yes = 49
yes = 45
yes = 50
yes = 51
yes = 52
yes = 65
yes = 68
yes = 69
yes = 70
yes = 66
yes = 71
yes = 73
yes = 316
yes = 317
yes = 318
yes = 72
yes = 64
yes = 63
yes = 56
yes = 55
yes = 54
yes = 53
yes = 44
yes = 43
yes = 18
yes = 41
yes = 42
yes = 46
yes = 47
yes = 77
yes = 78
yes = 79
yes = 83
yes = 80
yes = 81
yes = 82
yes = 76
yes = 67
yes = 75
yes = 74
yes = 84
yes = 313
yes = 314
yes = 315
yes = 374
yes = 85
yes = 86
yes = 87
# Sea zones
yes = 2395
yes = 2412
yes = 2472
yes = 2473
top = { x = 14574 y = 2004 }
bottom = { x = 15810 y = 3020 }
}What fascinates me is that some provinces have province-specific pictures. Have a look at Shanghai!
Fading Captain said:
More than Stalingrad?
Anyway, I think the reasoning behind London, Leningrad, and Moscow being urban and Paris and Rome not is very good. Leaving aside the question of whether the player should even have the opportunity of defending Paris or Rome house-by-house, neither had to be seized by force--whereas London probably and Leningrad and Moscow definitely would have been contested for every street corner. I have no problems with this.
Tokyo probably shouldn't be urban, but I could buy arguments either way--I don't know enough about the amount of stone buildings in Tokyo, if it could remain tenable for defense after firebombing, the way Stalingrad remained so despite Richtoffen's attempt to burn it out.
Kaempfer said:
That's what I meant, I'm sorry I ain't been very understandable.
There was no way to turn it into another Stalingrad because they weren't many Germans in the city. I just wanted to say they were ordered to destroy what they could, but also (IIRC) to remain in the city till the Allies arrive. I'm quite sure the fight would have been short as the German forces weren't strong enough to put in much resistance.
For the wide avenue and rectangular layout, well, IMHO New York is build that way, however it is an Urban province.
Well, there are a few other areas that had massive, drawn out battles in cities. Sevastopol springs to mind- taking it was a massive undertaking.