Upgrading of land units

[Radu]

I saw a screenshot recently that showed a type of armor increasing the "Toughness" stats for various brigades by +1.

My question is, how will upgrading work exactly?

Personally,I hope for a forked upgrade system : equipment upgrade and organization upgrade.

Equipment upgrade is just that, the reception of new equipment which can be done via a slider like in HOI2.

However,World War II was more than just innovative equipment,it was also about innovative organization. As the war progressed armies began to mechanize and integrate mobile artillery and anti-tank support at lower and lower levels. Also,coordination between various arms began to trickle down to the lowest of levels as well, with individual companies able to call accurate heavy artillery from self-propelled batteries and battalions able to direct on-call CAS aircraft assigned to the respective division.

This type of formation reshuffling is something that cannot be done on the frontlines and a formation should need to be pulled back or otherwise made unavailable for combat until the new command and control structure is implemented.

Finally, the tech tree looks like it will go back to its HOI1 roots with the ability to "customize" tank models. I hope,however,that realistic constraints will be placed.

For example, one should not be able to place a late-war gun on an early war tank. Any single component should be in "technical agreement" with the others that go in the equation so that no engineering impossibilities will arise.

Same for aircraft. The airframe of the plane must be modern enough to hold together if a very powerful engine is placed inside.

Doubly so for any organizational matters. It should not be possible for players to field '43 era formations if they only have '39 era equipment.

Thus,in terms of prerequisite, a minimum of material-organizational synergy must be ensured so that it doesn't pay to either field '45 organized brigades of Pz Is or the other way, field '39-organized Panther brigades.

There should be zero benefit if the player chooses to beeline on either the material or theoretical at the expense of the other.

HOI2 is unfortunately guilty of the sin of tech bee-lining. When playing as Germany it makes zero sense to research Anti-tank guns and one could even do without Artillery as well since ARM+ENG would get the job done just fine.

The vanilla HOI2 prerequisite network was greatly lacking.

Equipment,organization and doctrines go hand in hand, always, and the prerequisites should reflect that. Lagging in one area too far behind should completely compromise advances in the others.

An excellent example is the early-war Red Army. The Deep Battle doctrine was sound enough, but the Red Army not only lacked the organization necessary but it also lacked a medium tank to actually carry out the breakthroughs and exploitation.The BT series was too light and KV too heavy and both notoriously unreliable.

Thus,my hopes are for :

1) Realistic prerequisites reflecting the technical and doctrinal inter-dependencies.

2) Separate upgrade systems for separate things to upgrade : in the field equipment upgrades and behind the lines command structure reorganization.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

I personally prefer a "free market" solution to the problem.
As an example- you have to research AA guns not because that is required by the game, but because you just can't provide a good defense to your cities only with interceptors/fighters. Or you have to research some new tanks, not just because the further research in the doctrine “techs” requires it, but because you won’t be able to implement your strategy without them.

 

[Radu]

No,no...the other way around. Putting the cart before the horse friend

If you want AA you will want guns and you will also want adequate training.Coordinating with radar a good bonus early on,a must late in the war.

I mean,none of these things just spawn out of dry earth.All of these things have a "Why" not just where they are going but where they are also coming from as well.

Same for tanks. A doctrine doesn't require tanks being researched. Fielding tanks in a brigade requires a certain doctrine. You can't fight an effective mobile warfare without a proper doctrine. And we both agree a brigade isn't just tanks just grouped together.

For example, it doesn't matter if you have SP-ART equipped if your field commanders don't know what they are good for (and not good for!) or if the SP-ART crews aren't trained to "shoot and scoot" effectively.

And the SP-ART brigade itself isn't in a self-contained vacuum.It is part of the bigger doctrinal picture. You either have that picture or you don't.

Merely having the equipment without the doctrinal framework means nothing.

Merely having the doctrine with the equipment still on the drawing board also means nothing.

To field a military unit on the battlefield you need both doctrines and equipment.

At the root of it all,both equipment and doctrines lies the industry,You either have the advanced machine tools and materials needed to build stuff,from small radios to carriers,or you don't.

It's nothing more than a technical food chain,a logical flow-chart.I'm not proposing anything else than that which exists in real-life.

EDIT : This proposal is a correction to the HOI2 tech tree whose prerequisites were extremely lax and one could beeline unrealistically.

It is interesting to watch the HOI progression though :

1) HOI1 had an excellent tree that was decidedly equipment-oriented.

2) HOI2 had a not-so-excellent tree that had however the merit of being organization-oriented.

That is why I understand why AT guns were not a prereq for tanks.Because these represented organization techs. But one cannot simply take equipment out of the equation.

There is a problem with both: both are needed.

To field a military unit you need besides the doctrines to make it effective, a command structure and the proper equipment are needed.

The HOI3 tree is good in the sense that it retraces its equipment-oriented roots. There are also the "brigade activation" techs that sums it all up and actually activates the "next level".The dots are there. It's all about connecting them realistically.