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Salatmander

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Hey there, i am not sure if this was mentioned somewhere (and like most of the internet i am kind of lazy) so i am going to ask :p

In HoI 3 if you researched a tech that upgrades your ships (for example bigger guns) this new "Gun" was only installed on new build ships, there wasn t a way to "upgrade" your ships after they where finished.

Is this going to be similar in HoI 4 ?
The mechanic is a bit different now with this "unit designer" where you can "lvl up" one of the 4 stats with (i am not sure but think it was Experience ?) instead of teching up specific techs for that.

But are those "upgrades" going to be implementable into every ship of that specific class ? Or does those upgrades also only be installed on new build ships afterwards ?
 

Denkt

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Only on new ships I think.
Which areas you can uppgrade with the variant system depend on the ship type. Like for battleship you can uppgrade its main guns but not its anti aircraft guns while light cruiser you maybe can uppgrade its anti aircrafts guns but not its main guns, this give each ship a defined role and make it hard to forgo several ship classes.
 
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SonGoku

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I'm not so much interested in upgrading an entire ship. But what I'd like to see are conversions. For example: you order one battlecruiser but then decide that a carrier would more useful. And instead of outright order the carrier which would use up addtional naval IC it would be better to convert the BC currently in construction.
 

Salatmander

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Only on new ships I think.
Which areas you can uppgrade with the variant system depend on the ship type. Like for battleship you can uppgrade its main guns but not its anti aircraft guns while light cruiser you maybe can uppgrade its anti aircrafts guns but not its main guns, this give each ship a defined role and make it hard to forgo several ship classes.

Sounds plausible,
but i don t like the idea of my fleet being determined to be completely outdated after some years =/
i get that you can t upgrade the entire Ship class to the "shiny new BB class you just researched" but i think at least those upgrades should be able to be installed (maybe under the use of some Marine Factorys and the fact that the ship isn t able to run out during the process)
 

Denkt

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It is not exactly realistic system HOI4 use but I think the developers wan't you to build new ships and overall make the naval war more competitive instead of basically giving nations that start with large navies a guaranteed victory. You starting ships will become obsolete and if you can not keep up you risk to lose.

In reality upgrading old ships seems have often been prefered. Like Sweden did not build that many new ships during the time but upgrade those it had. It did not build many ships after the war either but again keept ships built in the 40s and 50s relevant into 70s and 80s by upgrading.

However Sweden did build some ships during HOI4 time, maybe the most important are the Tre Kronor class light cruiser. Then finished in around 1947-1948 they was probably the most modern light cruisers as they spotted 152 mm automatically loaded dual purpose guns (which are the largest serving naval artillery in the world today showing the longevity of that gun) and they was also some of the first ships that used the bofors M48 40mm gun which is huge improvement over the famous ww2 M36 40mm. This class would most likely score max on the anti air stats while not being a true anti air cruiser as it used larger main guns and also carried around 120 mines (all modern swedish ships was designed for mine laying). Sweden did also build some destroyers around that time that are compareable to stuff like the American fletcher and Gearing class but built for swedish requirement.

But as said uppgrading what you had was prefered and classes like Tre Kronor was heavily upgraded in the 50s.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Hey there, i am not sure if this was mentioned somewhere (and like most of the internet i am kind of lazy) so i am going to ask :p

In HoI 3 if you researched a tech that upgrades your ships (for example bigger guns) this new "Gun" was only installed on new build ships, there wasn t a way to "upgrade" your ships after they where finished.

Is this going to be similar in HoI 4 ?
The mechanic is a bit different now with this "unit designer" where you can "lvl up" one of the 4 stats with (i am not sure but think it was Experience ?) instead of teching up specific techs for that.

But are those "upgrades" going to be implementable into every ship of that specific class ? Or does those upgrades also only be installed on new build ships afterwards ?
You can upgrade the AA and radar in HoI3 but that's it. It's pretty much historical, except for secondary/DP guns that weren't represented separately in HoI and upgrading engines for WWI-era ships where the game couldn't handle putting active units back into the construction queue.
Sounds plausible,
but i don t like the idea of my fleet being determined to be completely outdated after some years =/
i get that you can t upgrade the entire Ship class to the "shiny new BB class you just researched" but i think at least those upgrades should be able to be installed (maybe under the use of some Marine Factorys and the fact that the ship isn t able to run out during the process)
But most of them indeed couldn't be installed in a realistic manner. Gun-swapping were mostly about swapping low-angle guns for DP guns which not necessarily increase firepower, or were pre-planned exceptions like the Japanese dual 20.3cm/50 for triple 15.5cm/60 on their "light cruisers", and any guns that demonstrate a significant breakthrough in areas other than AA efficiency usually have characteristics that make retrofit difficult, if not outright impossible (e.g. the super fast firing Des Moines guns had turrets much heaver than its predecessors), so it's mostly down to AA which is upgradable in HoI3. For capital ship guns, it's basically impossible. Italy did upgun their battleships, but that's done by boring the guns in place, so it's more of an exception.

For armor, I don't remember anyone welding extra plates on ships, but people do weld torpedo bulges on ships since they don't have to be structurally integrated into the armor to work.

For engine, I agree that they should be upgradable, however it should take a year or so and only worthwhile for WWI BB/BC since boiler technology jumped leaps and bounds since then and by WWII, even destroyer engines outclass the old WWI battleship's engines.

For torpedoes, They should be upgradable, but this is their first appearance in the series so I'm not sure how they'd work.

For smaller deck or superstructure devices like radar, FC, MG/autocannon and ASW weapons, they should be 100% upgradable as in HoI3.
 
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FieldMedic

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In HoI3 you could always upgrade a ship's anti-aircraft guns but that was it. I hope that makes a return in HoI4 given how dangerous aircraft are one's navy.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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The vanilla HoI3 tech basically give each ship class different AA techs which made no sense, but IIRC mods reduced them to DD's main guns (DP) and machine guns.
 

bkuepers

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You can upgrade the AA and radar in HoI3 but that's it. It's pretty much historical, except for secondary/DP guns that weren't represented separately in HoI and upgrading engines for WWI-era ships where the game couldn't handle putting active units back into the construction queue.

Yes. AA guns definitely need the ability to be upgraded. Those old ships will have crap AA and in major need of upgrading. Hoping that transfers over from HOI3, but I doubt it the way the system is designed to work.
 

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The vanilla HoI3 tech basically give each ship class different AA techs which made no sense, but IIRC mods reduced them to DD's main guns (DP) and machine guns.

Black Ice is not one of them. I have a couple of Deutschland-Class PBBs for example. I constructed them with 38 cm guns but over time the main guns were updated to 46 cm/48 cm cm guns which is utterly hilarious.
 
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Bryartuck

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Most of those old WW1 BBs and BCs had already been upgraded with new engines (and some with armor) prior to the time frame of the game. There were not very many upgraded withing the games time frame (though there were a few). As previously stated upgrading the main guns was almost impossible unless the ships were designed for the bigger guns in the first place (Mogamis) or had the barrels re-bored.
 

SchwarzKatze

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Black Ice is not one of them. I have a couple of Deutschland-Class PBBs for example. I constructed them with 38 cm guns but over time the main guns were updated to 46 cm/48 cm cm guns which is utterly hilarious.
I meant that the various naval AA techs get reduced to two, one for dual-purpose guns that also increase DD's sea attack, and another for machine guns and autocannons that doesn't.
Most of those old WW1 BBs and BCs had already been upgraded with new engines (and some with armor) prior to the time frame of the game. There were not very many upgraded withing the games time frame (though there were a few). As previously stated upgrading the main guns was almost impossible unless the ships were designed for the bigger guns in the first place (Mogamis) or had the barrels re-bored.
I think Revenge and Nelson should be upgradable. Throwing battleships that had engines weaker than a Fletcher or a Kagerō is an atrocity:mad:
 

Mannstien

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Yeah, you should be able to upgrade techs on older ships such as AA + Radar + and a few other things without needing to build a new ship, this was very common and while the armor layout and such of older ships was still a vulnerability they became much more effective at other duties such as Amphib invasions, convoy escorts etc.
 

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For armor, I don't remember anyone welding extra plates on ships, but people do weld torpedo bulges on ships since they don't have to be structurally integrated into the armor to work.

I've only gone through the RN starting ships in detail so far, but there were some armour improvements to the armour of the older Kent class as well as to HMS London, in refits that took some time, using cemented armour to improve the belt. A number of the Queen Elizabeth class got improvements to their deck armour as well (with at least one of those rebuilds finishing after 1936). It did happen, but it was quite unusual, and would be more trouble than it's worth putting in the game unless there was a detailed 'rebuild' mechanic.

On the upgrades that took place between 1936 and 46 (RN ships that were there in 1936 only - just because that's all I've got the data easily on to hand, but as the older ships are also good examples for what was/wasn't upgraded):

- The vast majority was AA, radar or ASW.
- Some of the AA increases were quite substantial - most of the earlier RN cruisers had 1-barrel 4in DP mounts, and most of these were upgraded to two-barrel mounts before or not long after the war started. To give an example, in 1936 HMS Rodney had 6 4" DP barrels, 16 2-pounders (two octuple mounts) and eight 0.5in Vickers guns (two quad mounts). After her 1944 refit, she had the same number of 4", but now had 44 2-pounders (five octuples and one quad) and 68 20mm Oerlikons (58 single, five double mounts).
- Even the smaller ships had upgrades - every RN destroyer that survived past late 1941, more or less, switched out its Vickers guns for 20mm Oerlikons, and usually the 20mm armament was increased again later in the war. Even the 1927 SS Oberon received one 20mm Oerlikon during the war.
- ASW was increased in pretty much every destroyer, with all receiving more depth charges and depth charge throwers, and many receiving Hedgehogs later in the war.
- Radar was added to every ship of CL and up, with BBs (even the Revenge class), but I haven't come across radar being added to the old DDs, even though the smaller vessels built during the war, even DEs, had a decent amount of radar equipment.

Most of those old WW1 BBs and BCs had already been upgraded with new engines (and some with armor) prior to the time frame of the game. There were not very many upgraded withing the games time frame (though there were a few). As previously stated upgrading the main guns was almost impossible unless the ships were designed for the bigger guns in the first place (Mogamis) or had the barrels re-bored.

The Japanese and Italians did a few major refits of their BBs and CVs (Japan only), and a number of these either finished or started after the start of HoI4. For example, Kaga was reconstructed between 1935 and 1938, with the reconstruction involving the lengthening of the flight deck from 624 feet to 817.6 feet, while the Japanese Ise class battleships were rebuilt finishing after HoI4 starts, with the rebuild involving an increase in the weight of armour (by the look of it mainly improvements to deck armour) from 9,525 to 12,644 tons. These two BBs were then converted to hybrid BB/seaplane carriers in 1943, with the removal of two main armament turrets, the building of a short flight deck and hangar and a removal of their main anti-ship secondary armament (but not their DP AA guns).
 
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Part of the reason for upgrading was the Naval Treaties, which limited how many ships you could build. Rather than scrap an obsolete but still functional ship to free up treaty tonnage for an all-new ship, it often made more sense to just rebuild the old one. If they could have kept the old one and added a new ship, that would probably have been done in at least a few cases.

The ability to return a ship to the build queue for an engine upgrade (or a gun upgrade if it was previously designed to handle the larger gun, as a way of evading the treaty limitations) would be a nice feature, but not something that should normally be done if you have other options.
 
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Antediluvian Monster

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For armor, I don't remember anyone welding extra plates on ships, but people do weld torpedo bulges on ships since they don't have to be structurally integrated into the armor to work.

I'm pretty sure Japanese actually bolted extra armour on top the face-hardened barbette armour on Nagatos. IIRC, Renown and Repulse also got thicker belts. But in general upgrades of vertical armour were on the rare side, and were treaty limited anyway. Deck armour upgrades were common, of course, both in addition of existing armour and instead.

I think Revenge and Nelson should be upgradable. Throwing battleships that had engines weaker than a Fletcher or a Kagerō is an atrocity:mad:

I doubt you could do much with Nelsons since they already had fairly modern machinery. In significant part machinery upgrades with ships like Kongo and Warspite made sense because they had such obsolescent ones and hence weight savings and power upgrades were possibility. Marine engine development was fast around WW1.

Part of the reason for upgrading was the Naval Treaties, which limited how many ships you could build. Rather than scrap an obsolete but still functional ship to free up treaty tonnage for an all-new ship, it often made more sense to just rebuild the old one. If they could have kept the old one and added a new ship, that would probably have been done in at least a few cases.

More importantly the bolded wasn't even possible. There was replacement schedule in Washington treaty.

It should be emphasized that these rebuilds were fairly expensive, about 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a new ship. Americans and to degree Japanese were also "fortunate" enough that they had stuff lying around from the ships that were cancelled by Washington, some of that material was subsequently used for upgrades.
 
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