UPDATED 14/06/18 - *** Rules for User Made Mods and Edits of PDS games ***

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

blackninja9939

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It appears to have been handled without having to involve you, or change the way you do things, when dealing with lawyers is that not the best result. :)
In my experience anything else tends to cost you lots of time and money at the very least.
Part of me does agree with tompalmer that a quick little "HBO is talking to us" meessage would be nice butttttttt..... as long as we don't out of the blue all get sued then you can protect us all you want and we will keep on with our merry modding ways :)
 

Castellon

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Let's take a general case and not talk specifics, If it is a legal matter it is the legal department handling it, which means any communication is a lawyers letter and that means if you are smart you are going out and hiring your own lawyer to interpret and respond. It also means that things are official and people need to take official stands and policies on things. ...
Sometime official positions are designed to protect the party from future liabilities, even if they are not in the immediate best interest of anyone involved.
TLDR = Let sleeping dogs lie
-The above is my personal comment and should not be taken as reflecting official comment of Paradox Interactive AB.
 
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tompalmer

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Well I disagree but since the matter is passed I don't really care anymore.
Just waiting to see if the new Steam thing will modify or not the rules for modding here, it seems it's not decided.

With luck we can supress or raise the mod size limit on the workshop, I guess it's what the money pays : storage.
 

Castellon

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You can always host here now.
 
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VinceDN

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Castellon, I would like some clarification on a few things if possible. Me and Laurence want to port the Post-Nuke Project to HOI IV. Our dream is a Red Alert / Fallout inspired 'what if' mod where Germany won WWII. I will also be producing custom concept art/prints and other 2D stuff to be used ingame. Looking at these rules I see a few possible problems:

  • No public external forum: We've used Invisionfree forums in the past for organizing projects with teams. The ability to create your own subdivisions and forums (eg a bug report forum, an 'events - Europe' forum subdivided into nations) is necessary to manage the huge amounts of code and keep everything organized. If we'd cram everything into a single forum - or worse, a single thread - I fear chaos will ensue

    We can of course have the forum set to private and invitation-only. But the way HOI modding has been in the past is that users may fly in and become limited contributors (writing an event here and there, giving OOB suggestions) without wanting to commit to being a full-time developer. This is a fun way to work as you constantly have new people coming in. Not being able to allow people to a public development forum pretty much 'walls off' the dev process from anyone who would want to contribute, and both me and Laurence want to push an 'open-development' format where every forum is public and any user can help in the process. What is the stance of the PDOX forums on this?

  • The User Mod may not claim ANY kind of license or copyright of any kind - this one worries me more. In RL I am a graphic designer so my forte is 2D work. For PNP I'm learning how to do concept art and generally building our universe and DNA. Hence we are not using 3rd party material anywhere, we are fully producing our own. By Belgian copyright law I am the copyright owner to anything I produce meaning I can use them however I see fit. The concepts will be used for promotion on ModDB and as loading screens, unit icons etcetera ingame aswell. Does this rule mean I forfeit my copyright as soon as the assets are used ingame?

    We also want the Post-Nuke Project to be a bigger universe in which we may do other things (hence the 'Project' in the title). For example I will be making a few comics based on the universe. Commercially speaking we have no interest in making money off the HOI IV mod - for me and Laurence making the mod is both a for-fun thing and a way to learn new skills. The broader universe, however, might be the basis for actual standalone games later on (our dream is making a turnbased squad combat game with scavenging a la XCOM) which will probably not be on a PDOX engine. I'm also not ruling out the possibility of more frivolous things like an art book, profits of which can be used to invest in a site and quality download servers for the mod. Where do we stand on copyright then?

    I'm thinking very 'what if' here, with HOI IV probably not coming out till early 2016. Still we'd like to know these things before we jump into the deep end of the pool, so to speak.
For reference, here is one of the WIP concepts we're working on:
33eikaq.png


Thanks in advance for your reply!

Regards,
Vincent and Laurence
 
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Jolt

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Castellon, I would like some clarification on a few things if possible. Me and Laurence want to port the Post-Nuke Project to HOI IV. Our dream is a Red Alert / Fallout inspired 'what if' mod where Germany won WWII. I will also be producing custom concept art/prints and other 2D stuff to be used ingame. Looking at these rules I see a few possible problems:

  • No public external forum: We've used Invisionfree forums in the past for organizing projects with teams. The ability to create your own subdivisions and forums (eg a bug report forum, an 'events - Europe' forum subdivided into nations) is necessary to manage the huge amounts of code and keep everything organized. If we'd cram everything into a single forum - or worse, a single thread - I fear chaos will ensue

    We can of course have the forum set to private and invitation-only. But the way HOI modding has been in the past is that users may fly in and become limited contributors (writing an event here and there, giving OOB suggestions) without wanting to commit to being a full-time developer. This is a fun way to work as you constantly have new people coming in. Not being able to allow people to a public development forum pretty much 'walls off' the dev process from anyone who would want to contribute, and both me and Laurence want to push an 'open-development' format where every forum is public and any user can help in the process. What is the stance of the PDOX forums on this?

  • The User Mod may not claim ANY kind of license or copyright of any kind - this one worries me more. In RL I am a graphic designer so my forte is 2D work. For PNP I'm learning how to do concept art and generally building our universe and DNA. Hence we are not using 3rd party material anywhere, we are fully producing our own. By Belgian copyright law I am the copyright owner to anything I produce meaning I can use them however I see fit. The concepts will be used for promotion on ModDB and as loading screens, unit icons etcetera ingame aswell. Does this rule mean I forfeit my copyright as soon as the assets are used ingame?

    We also want the Post-Nuke Project to be a bigger universe in which we may do other things (hence the 'Project' in the title). For example I will be making a few comics based on the universe. Commercially speaking we have no interest in making money off the HOI IV mod - for me and Laurence making the mod is both a for-fun thing and a way to learn new skills. The broader universe, however, might be the basis for actual standalone games later on (our dream is making a turnbased squad combat game with scavenging a la XCOM) which will probably not be on a PDOX engine. I'm also not ruling out the possibility of more frivolous things like an art book, profits of which can be used to invest in a site and quality download servers for the mod. Where do we stand on copyright then?

    I'm thinking very 'what if' here, with HOI IV probably not coming out till early 2016. Still we'd like to know these things before we jump into the deep end of the pool, so to speak.
For reference, here is one of the WIP concepts we're working on:
33eikaq.png


Thanks in advance for your reply!

Regards,
Vincent and Laurence

That's amazing artwork. As far as the copyright part of the forum rules go, it was written for Paradox's protection, as a means of preventing mod makers from suing Paradox should they happen to implement or adapt certain ideas or assets from mods to the game. Of course, if you were to take them to court, it is likely that the court would find that clause to be abusive, and you'd be free to claim your own work as your own IP.

Regardless, I assume that Paradox would pose no obstacles for you to claim your own work on mods for their games as part of your portfolio.
 
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Castellon

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You can use this forum for user interaction, you can have a dev only private forum, you cannot advertise or publish that address here or on steam.
For Copyright issues you should consult your copyright lawyer, The rule is you cannot have a written licence or copyright claim if you want to promote or distribute your Mod on this forum or Steam Workshop.
 
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VinceDN

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You can use this forum for user interaction, you can have a dev only private forum, you cannot advertise or publish that address here or on steam.
For Copyright issues you should consult your copyright lawyer, The rule is you cannot have a written licence or copyright claim if you want to promote or distribute your Mod on this forum or Steam Workshop.

Okay, makes sense. So can invite people to the dev forum by PM?
 

Meneth

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Meneth: What would be the rules on mod wikis? Kaiserreich has one and it's a great place to explain alternate history and strategies
AFAIK you're allowed to have one as long as it doesn't link a download (except for one located on the Paradox mod forum or Steam Workshop). MEIOU & Taxes has one for example.

Any modder can also create a page on the official wiki for the relevant game for their mod. Same restriction on download links of course.
 

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"The rule is you cannot have a written licence or copyright claim if you want to promote or distribute your Mod on this forum or Steam Workshop."

Not offering a license means 'all rights reserved'. It still, years later, beggars belief that these rules don't reflect this most basic of legal concepts.

Quote gov.uk (bold emphasis mine):

You automatically get copyright protection when you create:
  • original non-literary written work, eg software, web content and databases
A copyright claim is a specific form of action; an enforcement of copyright protection. It is not a copyright disclaimer, which don't have any legal basis anyway (i.e. writing 'all rights reserved' on things doesn't have any legal weight). A 'credit' is legally meaningless too. I can't believe any lawyer would write something so fundamentally wrong like this unless they'd never worked copyright before.

I stopped modding EU4 because of this hilariously broken policy and I'm sad to see it's still in force. It's hard to follow rules that contradict the law, and I don't see how anyone can produce quality work when there is so much legal uncertainty, esp. in an age where retailers want to sell mods and don't comprehend why modders would want to protect their work from other people profiting off it.

It's hard enough even when you have good, sensible open source licenses to ensure any derivative works contribute back to the community and the project; almost all the mods I've written over the past decade+ have been abused at some point or another, usually people taking the open-source code and trying to create their own derivative, closed-source, versions that don't contribute back to the community at large. This is not good for anyone except the people doing the (illegal) theft. Paradox are the only company who games I've modded for (of dozens) who seem to actively want this to occur.

I guess I'll check back in a further 6 months to see if this policy has been improved and, if not, I'll probably just write off Paradox products as realistically no longer worth modding.

As for not having legal discussions in this thread... I tried having them with the legal team. They didn't discuss it, they just dismissed it as "accept it or get the hell out". So I did the latter. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth... I'd been modding Paradox games for many years with my own licenses. I'd rather resolve it, but if Paradox really do not want this resolved then there's nothing I, or anyone else in my position, can do.

I stepped away for 6 months partly to see if I might change my mind, but nothing has changed except the industry (specifically, Steam) has demonstrated why it is even more imperative that modders can enforce protections on their work to insure against other people abusing the works by adding monetisation and publisher grabbing rights in to the mix. I'm more convinced than ever that it's not worth spending hundreds of hours on high-quality content if the net result is that other people will take it and produce lower quality content from it, or expect the right to hide it behind closed-source for personal gain, when there's so many other games out there (i.e. almost all games that offer modding) that won't artificially and intentionally encourage those risks for modders.
 
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...Not offering a license means 'all rights reserved'. It still, years later, beggars belief that these rules don't reflect this most basic of legal concepts... et al.

Well put. I think this does a great job of hitting all the high points - it's legally contrary, short-sighted, discouraging to high-quality mods, offensive to the community, communicatively-poor, old-fashioned, ignorant of the progress of software today (even APPLE is open-sourcing Swift, and Microsoft .NET!!), more closed-garden than the most closed-garden closed-gardens, and generally not seeming to be thought out, all behind a veil of "Shut up and don't worry or talk about it but we love you lawlssss"
 
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Just noticed a couple of mods on the Steam Workshop tonight that strike me as a bit sketchy.

They're both by the same guy, and they're part of a collection titled "Uncommon Sense" with the description, "This collection tries to add common sense functionalities to the base game without having to own the DLC."



http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=485609012&searchtext=

Description:

---------------------
This mod allows players to increase their government rank through a series of decisions.

This mod IS NOT a copy of the Common Sense DLC and does not include any extracts of the Common Sense DLC codes. I am in no way publishing any work of other people. All the scripts in the mod are written by me. This mod does not offer the same luxury as the Common Sense DLC and is supposed to be used as an intermezzo before a sale or demo. Please do not comment about me being an *sshole for publishing this and me not thinking about all the time and effort Paradox put into the DLC without thinking about the time and effort I put into this mod first.

This mod does NOT require the Common Sense DLC.
This mod ONLY has English localisation.
This mod is NOT Ironman compatible.

Credits:
Creation: CptWesley
Testing: SkillsThatKillz
---------------------


http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=485605434&searchtext=

Description:

---------------------
This mod allows players to increase the development of provinces through multiple decisions.

This mod IS NOT a copy of the Common Sense DLC and does not include any extracts of the Common Sense DLC codes. I am in no way publishing any work of other people. All the scripts in the mod are written by me. This mod does not offer the same luxury as the Common Sense DLC and is supposed to be used as an intermezzo before a sale or demo. Please do not comment about me being an *sshole for publishing this and me not thinking about all the time and effort Paradox put into the DLC without thinking about the time and effort I put into this mod first.

This mod does NOT require the common sense DLC.
This mod ONLY includes English localisation.
This mod is NOT Ironman compatible.

Credits:
Creation: CptWesley
Testing: SkillsThatKillz
---------------------

I don't normally think of myself as the sort of guy that runs to "tell" on someone, but the way this guy is trying to defend what he's doing strikes me as more than a little weasel-ish, and pretty insulting to the spirit of the modding community for Paradox's games. As far as I've ever understood with pretty much any game that had a modding community, you just don't do this sort of thing, because it undermines the developer-modder relationship, with modders of this guy's sort taking advantage of the trust they're given in being allowed to publish mods through official channels in the first place. Maybe it doesn't specifically break any rules, because he did write up the scripts himself, but if nothing else, it goes against the spirit of the seventh rule, and is at least in a grey area. Clarification from above would be awesome, and if this guy is indeed going against your wishes, I hope the evidence I've provided is a good enough CB.
 
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shierholzer

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Just noticed a couple of mods on the Steam Workshop tonight that strike me as a bit sketchy.
There is no 'do not replicate features already in a DLC'-rule.
As far as I can tell, these are two sets of decisions allowing you to improve your government rank and province development in a similar way to the mechanics introduced in Common Sense.

((Especially the government rank thing has been in mods for years.))
 
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blackninja9939

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There is no 'do not replicate features already in a DLC'-rule.
As far as I can tell, these are two sets of decisions allowing you to improve your government rank and province development in a similar way to the mechanics introduced in Common Sense.

((Especially the government rank thing has been in mods for years.))
Well rule number 7 is effectively that, do not use DLC material unless you can ensure they have DLC. I would think that covers mimicking DLC content.
 
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There is no 'do not replicate features already in a DLC'-rule.
As far as I can tell, these are two sets of decisions allowing you to improve your government rank and province development in a similar way to the mechanics introduced in Common Sense.

((Especially the government rank thing has been in mods for years.))

Eh, I'd still rather hear from someone that can speak for Paradox on this one, because they way I read it, it sounds like it at least goes against the spirit of #7, if not the actual text.
 
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Castellon

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I will look into this but most likely not till next week when I return from Gamescom as I do not want to just make a snap decision.