Update Excommunication, Traitors and Heretics

[Brent_P]

When playing the Byzantine Empire I love being able to use the excommunication option. Of course, if I restore the Pentarchs and/or start handing out exarch/despot titles, then I am limited on this ability, as I should be. But there are problems no matter what kind of game I am playing when it comes to excommunicated characters.

The problem with excommunication: It isn't realistic. I am allowed to execute an excommunicated character. I'm not allowed to do anything else??? In history an excommunicated character or a heretic was usually fair game for whatever a ruler wanted to do. I should be able to banish, seize any and all lands/titles and not be able to 'order to take vows' (or at least give it a penalty); If I try to seize a title, I am penalized big time like nothing has changed. And except for a slight opinion penalty, all the other "good Christian" vassals will still do business with him/her and if I am out of luck with being able to imprison that vassal, it is business as usual.

Same thing with Traitors. Ok, some traitors in the game are not that big a deal (e.g. some vassal somewhere got found out for some irrelevant plot; great opportunity to lock him up if he's someone you don't like). Come on...I'm supposed to believe that the duke who just led a revolt in my honor and now sits in my dungeon isn't fair game for whatever punishment I want? I can't execute the traitor? I can't take away more than one of his titles? All the other vassals will think I'm a tyrant?

And heretics??? A suspected heretic is pretty much untouchable too. A court chaplain I just imprisoned for trying to convert me? Ok, that works pretty well. Otherwise, the heretic portion of the game feels lacking. Would make a great new plot: "fabricate evidence of being a heretic" or "fabricate evidence of being a witch".

Suggestions:

1. Create a new class of traitors (anyone revolting against their liege)
2. (Based on the Crown authority law) Allow increasing options for these traitors: free revocation of all titles, execution, banishment, etc.
3. Allow free revocation of all titles and banishment with an excommunicated character (except with 'min crown authority).
4. Allow the Ecumenical Patriarch and Anti-pope AI to excommunicate characters on their own in addition to the current options, excluding their own liege, of course.
5. Add in the option to seize all lands of a defeated excommunicated character
6. Add some flavor events/decisions to the 'suspected heretic' characters
7. Increase the general opinion penalty for being excommunicated from -30 to -60 or higher; add in a taxation penalty.

8. Add in the plots: "fabricate evidence of being a witch" and/or "fabricate evidence of heresy" or at least something to this effect:
- Success would allow a decision to imprison the character and add 'suspected ___" to the character's traits.
- Failure would add "cleared witch" or "cleared heretic" and wouldn't allow the same decision twice, since the church would likely not believe it.
- After being imprisoned: a decision would appear allowing execution or seizing of all titles (with a -20 opinion penalty (discourages using frequently and simulates distrust of other vassals in the evidence)
- The decisions would only be allowed if: relations between target character and local bishop are low enough and relations between liege and local bishop or religious leader are high enough.
- An event would fire within a certain amount of time (if the 'convict heretic/witch' hasn't been used [or couldn't be used]) forcing the liege to decide between freeing the character (the "cleared ___" would be added as a trait with a small monthly piety gain bonus) or keeping the character in the dungeon and incurring all of the typical penalties (tyranny, opinion decrease, etc.).

Ok...#8 is just a thought. After playing this game for a couple of years I really think 1-7 are needed updates for historical accuracy.

Does anyone else like any of these suggestions, or am I way off here???

 

[NewbieOne]

A focus on execution for excommunicates is a bit misfortunate, especially in the light of Christianity's focus on at least sparing the life itself, showing some mercy etc.

It would be good to have a less tyrannical option — the mildest really — where you neither execute the prisoner nor deprive the family of its heirloom, but simply banish the current holder, to be replaced with his normal heir or perhaps an heir of your choice ('your favourite heir' in the language from the Depose Liege LB, probably including any claimant). This option should generally apply to normal feudal holders with hereditary (non-elective except for gavelkind elective) titles, not viceregal titles. As a Byzzie running imperial admin, you should have much more leeway taking away such lieutenancies. And with titles in general. This is because Roman/Byzantine local strongmen were either

political officials/magistrates with no ownership interest (only imperium but no dominium) or
holders of private estates with maybe some serfs on them, but no state power per se (only dominimum but no imperium.

It just wasn't combined the same way as in the case of dukes and counts in the west.

An exception would be Bulgarian, Slavic, Georgian and Armenian ethnic princes, who are 'traditional rulers'. Those would be more like western feudal vassals, where there would be an expectation of leaving the family in power.

As for sending someone to a monastery, it should be pretty much free for all traitors (not necessarily all excommunicates) — the standard way was to blind them AND send them to a monastery.

BUT, I don't think players should be allowed too much freedom with excommunicating and revoking their vassals freely simply because of having a vassalized head of religion.

Political and territorial/administrative vassalage is not the same as vassalage in spiritual matters would have been. Emperors were moderators and keepers of order (dispensers of offices sometimes) rather than proper doctrinal/moral authorities in doctrinal and similar matters. Players really shouldn't be allowed too much freedom with things that just wouldn't have been done by a real emperor (for fear of hell, for sense of honour and propriety and limits of his own conscience regardless if religious, for limits to his cruelty or perfidy, for fear of opinion hits etc.).

In short, the purpose of the game is not to enable players to do gamey things.

(As much as I agree that banishment needs to be more liberal and also excom needs tweaks and more frequent usage with drastic consequences for the target.)

 

[Brent_P]

Some of what you say certainly makes sense to me, and makes me wish for some modification/additions of a monastery system to the game.

I think the ability for the Byzantine Emperor to issue excommunication (And the lack of the AI Patriarch's ability to excommunicate) has made it really easy to abuse. After all, if a rebellion is brewing and other methods are not working well, it can be really easy to just excommunicate the troublemaker and send him to the dungeon. The dungeon takes away his/her ability to add to the plot, but kind of makes the whole system seem unreal, or "gamey".

The game now allows for the Byzantine empire to 'feel' different. But, I think the Imperial Admin laws should be the catalyst for that change and right now doesn't make that big of a difference from being a Feudal system.

If that were tweaked, and the religious system (including the excomm and actually making the AI religious leaders more interactive and proactive) were tweaked, that might make the game a little more realistic and less "gamey", as you put it.

I still wish the traitor system would be fleshed out more. I can't stand that an imprisoned vassal who led a revolt is mostly untouchable. Maybe an event chain or decisions could be added in the upcoming WoL to make the end of a revolt more interesting or just add more options with traitors as the Crown Authority Law increases???

 

[NewbieOne]

Yeah, I agree with you that they seem to get off too easy, but I also see their post-war imprisonment in a sort of 'you did the crime, you do the time' way — they just go to jail without losing their titles, but it still stinks to be there (sometimes literally). Something like 10 for murder, 2 for plots, 5 for rebellions, this kind of tariff. Some of them die in that jail. Alternatively, if they aren't murderers I might let them out for a ransom after a while, which is typically worth several years of their income.