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a_sophist

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I want to comment on the definition of "broken". Its a big pet peeve and one of the worst things to try and understand as a dev. People love to label stuff as "broken" when they mean "not fun". As devs, broken means bugged somehow, or not working according to design. When I read broken I go "wait what, is there some bug I don't know about? or is he just saying he doesn't like a thing.. and if so what doesnt he like about it?". Its frustrating and not helpful, so if possible, its perfectly ok and very preferred to comment on stuff not being fun. Calling it broken just confuses stuff. as far as I know there are no common gamebreaking bugs with it. but it is very unfun to players.
Perhaps a more accurate word for the complaint is "incoherent." If there were clearly established and readily available "rules" for occupations and war score calculation, players could at least work around them instead of getting surprised after hours of playing. I think we're all aware that the UI and other resources like the wiki are insufficient to clear up the confusion that arises from cases like the ones brought up in this and other threads. I can appreciate the desire to have players learn "best practices" through trial and error and drawing on the community's experience, but we still need some basic tools to facilitate that.
 

RELee

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Are you saying that Peace Conference is designed to shaft anyone but the first 2 countries?

Let me rephrase that: Is everyone but the top 2 getting shafted in the peace conference working according to design?

He is saying that the system was designed at a time when it was not realized how popular playing minor countries would become, so minor country players are being "shafted" unintentionally (due to what has become a poor design due to the introduction of popular minor country play) and the developers are working on improving the system to remove the unintentional "shafting".
 

TheMeInTeam

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Hi guys, interesting discussion. Be careful so it stays constructive :)

I want to comment on the definition of "broken". Its a big pet peeve and one of the worst things to try and understand as a dev. People love to label stuff as "broken" when they mean "not fun". As devs, broken means bugged somehow, or not working according to design. When I read broken I go "wait what, is there some bug I don't know about? or is he just saying he doesn't like a thing.. and if so what doesnt he like about it?". Its frustrating and not helpful, so if possible, its perfectly ok and very preferred to comment on stuff not being fun. Calling it broken just confuses stuff. as far as I know there are no common gamebreaking bugs with it. but it is very unfun to players.

The system was designed to be a competition between 2 faction leaders at a time where we didnt really consider how much people would like to play minors. With the current rules of course the AI is gonna shaft you if it wants your land, the trick is coming up with a system that feels rewarding at all levels.
Improving peace conferences has in fact been on our roadmap for a long time (here is the last update before we started on Man the Guns: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-1-5-2-future-roadmap-and-ironclad.1088407/ ). Its a tricky problem for sure to solve

In this case there's something of a disambiguation due, because there are subjective un-fun elements and a few things that are almost certainly bugged.

  1. Bombing and occupations are 100% identical all the time until bombing hits its cap, but I'm guessing you guys are well aware of this by now...pretty significant influence on war contribution --> peace deals though.
  2. Even between faction majors, control of territory is ignored when doing puppets/change government and giving land to them. This either a bug or a significant internal inconsistency, as it completely bypasses the 10x cost modifier applied to land held by a different faction and it's strange to imagine say USSR giving up territory for less cost than standard just because it's going to a new, different-ideology regime. Also In extreme cases with good war score you could first puppet some 1 cost province in USSR, then in the next round of peace deals take > 60% of Russia with less war contribution than a nation that actually holds Russian land in a different faction.
  3. On that note, who gets capitulations and occupations is extremely opaque in-game, and when bitmode finally dug up the code for us it's pretty convoluted...for example Australia capitulating to a nation that's never even had naval superiority on its shores, let alone actually invaded it, or land being auto-transferred to a nation that joined 6 days ago just because it happens to be close, even though it's already held by other faction member. This again influences peace conference outcome, especially when land is given to someone outside faction.
  4. My picture of Bolivar Empire being given land in Germany by the allies while not a member of the allies earlier in this thread has to be bugged. There's no coherent rule set that should be allowing landlocked provinces to randomly be "occupied" by a different faction that's never been there.
With the possible exception of #3 (though you'd have to stretch), these are pretty squarely on the "bugged or not working properly" side. Aside from them, the factors in war contribution as designed are worth a look - counting bombing (infrastructure & equipment damage) but not naval battles or casualties inflicted (also very significant equipment damage!) is strange and it creates degenerate incentives from a game perspective.

~~~

On a side note "broken" is common usage in gaming to mean a wide variety of things. This includes features/options in a game that are simply overpowered compared to others, actual bugs/glitches, or even just disjointed conceptual implementations. It's a broad term...generally in game discussion if someone feels a mechanic is outright bugged you'll see "bug" rather than "broken", though in the case of peace conferences the broad brush term covers bugs and some inconsistent elements alike.

This is before we get into situations like the event white peace in China giving land to China that's held by a nation still fighting Japan (if China wants this land, it should need to declare war on the nation holding it), or certain focus tree outcomes that allow territory to switch hands and screw nations over w/o agency.
 
Last edited:

SchwarzKatze

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He is saying that the system was designed at a time when it was not realized how popular playing minor countries would become, so minor country players are being "shafted" unintentionally (due to what has become a poor design due to the introduction of popular minor country play) and the developers are working on improving the system to remove the unintentional "shafting".
So that means it's indeed broken according to his definition if people play minors? Because if it's not "broken", then what happens is "according to design", using his own words.
 

Armacalic

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Come on dude, even a dev from the game told you how you can help by differentiating between the two terms, least you could do is cooperate. :A

So that means it's indeed broken according to his definition if people play minors? Because if it's not "broken", then what happens is "according to design", using his own words.

Not exactly, it means that the focus of the game lied elsewhere when they were developing the peace conference and war score system. The system works in that it's throwing the results they expected from the previous focus, but it's not a result that gives minor players a fun outcome.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Come on dude, even a dev from the game told you how you can help by differentiating between the two terms, least you could do is cooperate. :A

I did cooperate. I will not alter proper usage of terms in English in response to other people wanting them to fit a more constrained meaning than is reality. The game state of HOI 4's peace conferences are properly described by the language I used. That is reality.
 

Armacalic

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I did cooperate. I will not alter proper usage of terms in English in response to other people wanting them to fit a more constrained meaning than is reality. The game state of HOI 4's peace conferences are properly described by the language I used. That is reality.

You've literally been told that for the devs, your language can mean other thing. THAT is reality, and you're not right. :A
 

Armacalic

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So you're saying that everyone but the top 2 getting shafted in the peace conference is working according to design?

I think you're being a little obtuse here. The system is working as intended for what the focus of the game was. It's not inherently in the design to fuck the smaller people, so much as the design followed the logic that people would play the majors much more often.
 

TheMeInTeam

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You've literally been told that for the devs, your language can mean other thing. THAT is reality, and you're not right. :A

It *can* mean a lot of things. What matters is that my usage is consistent with at least one of those things.

Which it is. I'm trying to state my position on the state of the mechanic. The words I chose are consistent with accepted usage per multiple dictionaries (including those available freely online). I'm not interested in switching out of using correct language because it gets misinterpreted.
 

Sourlol

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Peace Comferences and ending wars in general feels super unfun and not rewarding.

Irl, the war was pretty much “decided” with Midway and Stalingrad. Had real ww2, been a game of hoi4, most lobbies would have fallen apart here. But in real life you have to finish the war, in real life you had Hitler and Tojo who wouldn’t quit.

In game, once winning or losing is inevitable, most people exit to lobby and make a new game.

In game we aren’t concerned with the outcomes of the war, and with how anti-climatic peace conferences feel, why would we stick around for it?

Peace conferences may work according to their design, but their design is inadequate. It doesn’t come close to modeling a real peace conference and all the different levers pulling on leaders decision making. It operates like a first past the post mad territory grab.

But, to make a useful peace conference relevant, paradox needs to implement victory conditions. Currently, achievements and having conquered the world by 1948 are the only ones. I don’t know how to implement victory conditions for ahistorical gameplay, but historic (and it’d probably require retuning the balance) would be something like:

To Win
Western Allies: Defeat Axis and Co-Prosperity Sphere, accrue more “victory points” than Comintern
Axis: survive past historical date of European capitulation; or outright win
Comintern: Defeat Axis And Co-Prosperity Sphere, acrue more “victory points” than Western Allies
Co-Prosperity Sphere: survive past historical date of Japanese capitulation; or outright win
China: organize China under one country (whichever Chinese state does this wins their game)

IMO, the game should closely follow historical potential, so what we play in game is plausible ahistorical outcomes. But that is another discussion.


With the above, peace conferences matter, in a historic game, how you divide up Europe between Capitalism and Communism likely helps determine the winner. I’d hope there are bespoke bonus conditions for countries. US wants to see the world more enfranchised and Democratic. So there will be a tug between them and UK who will likely want to keep her colonies.

The victory conditions would introduce tension between Allies and USSR. If giving lend lease gives “victory points” then the USSR will only want to take from the western allies what she absolutely has to to get by. By the same token, the western allies will only want to give what they need to to keep USSR in the fight, they don’t want to give her so much she is steamrolling the Nazis in 1942. Further, the allies will be more influenced to DDay further east, as that will stem the inevitable Slavic tide west.

The balance would hopefully land somewhere around (assuming equal skill) 50% Axis falls short of history and loses, 40% Axis beats history, still inevitably loses, 10% Axis WC.
 

Armacalic

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At that point, aren't you taking more about victory conditions instead of the peace conference system?

Not to mention the point of the original complaint was that a war that didn't devolve into a historical WWII gave shit results to a player who played a minor outside of factions, none of your victory conditions really accounts for that.
 

Sourlol

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At that point, aren't you taking more about victory conditions instead of the peace conference system?

Not to mention the point of the original complaint was that a war that didn't devolve into a historical WWII gave shit results to a player who played a minor outside of factions, none of your victory conditions really accounts for that.

I guess that is my point there is no point to peace conferences, currently. Just as there is no point to actually capitulating the losing enemy.

We need a hook to keep people interested when the result of the war is certain.

If the extent of a peace conference is “okay, now the map is grey...guess I’ll exit to menu...or I can keep making tank divisions...” what’s the point?

I came to the same frustration as OP. I found joy again by doing achievements and then my own little games in my head. I’d achieve my goals and leave the game. I can’t recall the last time I’ve see the peace conference screen.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Which basically means you're not willing to help or cooperate with the devs by actually differentiating the terms to help avoid confusions. You're not right, my dude.

Even if every game developer on the planet colluded to define the Earth's distance from the sun as greater than Saturn's, it still wouldn't be consistent with widespread linguistically defined meaning for the concepts of "distance" and "greater than".

This has nothing to do with cooperation, which can be done regardless of misinterpretation of terms.

I guess that is my point there is no point to peace conferences, currently. Just as there is no point to actually capitulating the losing enemy.

Control of IC over a period of > 50% of the run time is pretty significant. That capitulations can go to the wrong nation is yet another problem with direct implications of peace conference outcomes.
 

Armacalic

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Even if every game developer on the planet colluded to define the Earth's distance from the sun as greater than Saturn's, it still wouldn't be consistent with widespread linguistically defined meaning for the concepts of "distance" and "greater than".

This has nothing to do with cooperation, which can be done regardless of misinterpretation of terms.

Doesn't work that way, the clarification already got made about how the words and terminology are being used here, and told that other usages cause confusion. It's also been suggested that using the words and terminology as suggested by the devs would help.

You say you're not going to do it. That pretty much means that you reject helping with minimizing confusion because you don't feel like it. Dude, you're still not right. And I'll gladly repeat it to you as long as you continue to think you're right but in reality aren't.



Maybe, but that's looking at the larger conflicts/WWII+III. At this moment more people are requesting more local conflicts, and some of the newer alt-history focus trees, on top of the regular ones already give one the ability to engage on some wars that don't initiate WWII.

A peace conference and war score system that supply players with more options and less weird results is still important for the game.
 
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bitmode

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As devs, broken means bugged somehow, or not working according to design. When I read broken I go "wait what, is there some bug I don't know about? or is he just saying he doesn't like a thing..
The bug reporters (sometimes affectionately called players ;) ) don't know the game design documents, so yes, technically we cannot call anything broken because it might be designed to be exactly like that. Unless it literally makes the game crash or freeze. But there's still a difference between a user-reported bug and a suggestion in that the bug points at a discrepancy between the implementation and what can reasonably assumed to be the design, while a suggestion is an opinion on how the assumed design could be made better.
E.g. "the game would be more fun if I didn't suddenly have 2 million deficit in infantry equipment" doesn't make a whole lot of sense because it implies that behavior was designed. It can be reasonably assumed to be broken.
That said I agree that "broken" and "game-breaking" are thrown around too lightly by some.
 

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At least one bug with warscore contributions was posted in the thread, several things that are either bugs, game-inconsistencies (meaning that at least one part of it is not within the design), or things that should (and dear lord do I hope they are) be against the game design were brought up. These issues directly or indirectly tie into the peace conference mechanic.

All of these meet the exact criteria set by podcat's post. Arguing over semantics is irrelevant when the game meets even the (arbitrarily, but they do run the game I guess) strict criteria of the term 'broken'.

I'm not psychic, nor do I know anything that isn't being actively stated somewhere on the forums / other media, but I'm going to give the devs the benefit of the doubt and assume things like 'capitulating to someone that owns 0 provinces in the area and only joined the war 6 days ago' are just bugs and not intentional. If these things are intentional, I'm sorry for making this assumption, and will fully redact anything where I state these are bugs or inconsistent designs.
 
Last edited:

Celdur

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Hi guys, interesting discussion. Be careful so it stays constructive :)

I want to comment on the definition of "broken". Its a big pet peeve and one of the worst things to try and understand as a dev. People love to label stuff as "broken" when they mean "not fun". As devs, broken means bugged somehow, or not working according to design. When I read broken I go "wait what, is there some bug I don't know about? or is he just saying he doesn't like a thing.. and if so what doesnt he like about it?". Its frustrating and not helpful, so if possible, its perfectly ok and very preferred to comment on stuff not being fun. Calling it broken just confuses stuff. as far as I know there are no common gamebreaking bugs with it. but it is very unfun to players.

The system was designed to be a competition between 2 faction leaders at a time where we didnt really consider how much people would like to play minors. With the current rules of course the AI is gonna shaft you if it wants your land, the trick is coming up with a system that feels rewarding at all levels.
Improving peace conferences has in fact been on our roadmap for a long time (here is the last update before we started on Man the Guns: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-1-5-2-future-roadmap-and-ironclad.1088407/ ). Its a tricky problem for sure to solve


Podcat i commend you on your answer, very informative and clear.