It seems to me that a lower organizational rating to reflect a morale hit might be the way to model any lukewarm feelings amongst a puppet state's armed forces.
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It seems to me that a lower organizational rating to reflect a morale hit might be the way to model any lukewarm feelings amongst a puppet state's armed forces.
I don't understand how the conclusion was made that Sweden had a unreliable military.
If Sweden would have been attacked we surely would have fought to the last man. We are no different than Norway or Finland.
So i would like to know why and how that oppinion was formed.
If Sweden would have been attacked we surely would have fought to the last man. We are no different than Norway or Finland.
So i would like to know why and how that oppinion was formed.
Originally posted by Backpack
It is just my opinion but I think these troops (from conquered countries) generally would not be trusted/respected by the German soldiers (no matter how well equiped they were).
While an enemy soldier can be grudgingly respected as a tough advesary, a man who has chosen to sell out his country is not someone I would want covering my back. Similarly a division of sell outs is not what I want holding my flank.
Just a thought...
Edit: Welcome to the forum arc3371.
Ferdinand might not mind, unless he cant attack?
I'd agree with you Sweden did have good military forces, I'd guess that they'd perform as well as the Finns did. I'd still think that it would suffer the same fate as the other major minors did against Germany thou.
Norway certainly did not fight to the last man---and Sweden was a German (economic) satellite without even firing a shot. There'd be resistance sure, but surrender wouldn't take a long time to come IMHO.
Originally posted by Wido
Who were Hiwis?
Hilfswillige (sp?)
Enemy citizens willing to help. I think the term was primarily used in Russia, where significant numbers of civilians served in support duties for German troops.
It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than France which was a major power.
As for beeing a economic satelite yes of course Sweden had 6 million inhabitants or so, we couldn't be a economic giant thats not possible. We sold iron ore to Germany to stay out of the war all nations tried to stay out as long as possible. Some even gave away other nations freedom for the sake of it.
Hmm.... i don't like that a lot of threads are starting to look like sweden bashing threads...
As for beeing a economic satelite yes of course Sweden had 6 million inhabitants or so, we couldn't be a economic giant thats not possible. We sold iron ore to Germany to stay out of the war all nations tried to stay out as long as possible. Some even gave away other nations freedom for the sake of it.
Hmm.... i don't like that a lot of threads are starting to look like sweden bashing threads...
Found this under the Allies, Collaborators and Imitators chapter of "Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" (by Richard Overy) :
In October 1941 a division of volunteers from the Spanish fascist Falange party went to Russia. It was withdrawn in 1943 but a volunteer Spanish Legion stayed on, and was among the final forces defending Berlin in April 1945.
I know what you mean.
I think everyone needs to be careful not to step on each other's toes in HoI. Sometimes what is written/interpreted is not what the poster had intended to convey. I am sure that some of the posts are just meant to be good natured ribbings (similar to sports team rivalries)...but...with the multitude of nationalities and personalities it is impossible to guarantee that a good natured jest won't be construed as an insult or put down by somebody else.
Okay, I'm off the soapbox now.
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Back On Topic:
This thread has been very informative. I didn't realize just how many people from other countries fought for Germany nor did I realize all of the political reasons they did so.
Guess I'm just your typical ignorant American.
Edit: Hey, it should be okay to make fun of yourself.
...just not someone else.
I apologize if my post has come a little too strong Peo, that wasn't my intention. I've never been to Sweden, though have met Swedes (both online and RL) and think they're great people---certainly don't have any reason to bash Sweden.
What I was disagreeing with, however, was the "fight to the last man" line, I sincerely believe that this would not have been the case had the Nazi Germany declared war on Sweden.
Selling iron to Germany was a necessary precaution to prevent the afore-mentioned outcome, namely German invasion. My own country, Turkey, had to provide supplies to Nazi troops stationed in the Balkans; nor am I proud of the (fascist) Turkish "Gray Wolf" volunteers who joined the Nazi army. I certainly won't blame Sweden for doing what she had to in order to stay neutral.
Jup, Norway didn´t hold up for more than 2 months against the german invation. And there were several men still alive after the capitulation
But seriously there was nothing wrong with the fighting spitit in Norway in 1940, just a general lack of heavy equipment, airpower and military readyness. Most of the men who fought from the 9th april (the day of the invation) showed up of their own free will (the official mobilisation date beeing on the 11th), and they countinued to fight until the French and British pulled out to fight in France.
I´d guess the same be true for Sweden had they been attacked by Germany. When all hope of victory is gone, the major allied powers pulling out, surrender. Better to live and fight another day.
Just a little patriotic reaction to "Norway certainly did not fight to the last man"
You make it sound like they just rolled over.
And by the way, the norwegian merchant marine countinued in allied service through out the war, controlled by the Norwegian government in London.
TMO
I didn't mean fight to th last man litteraly, maybe i should not have used that term.
Most troops weren't actually unreliable. Hungarians, Italians, Romanians and so on were not actually that inferior to German troops. It was usually more a case of being very poorly equipped, supported and led.
As someone said Romanian and Hungarian troops were treated by Germans at Stalingrad as inferior as they collapsed and allowed the Russians to create the kessel (sp?). However this was largely due to the fact that these troops were lucky if they had one anti-tank weapon for an entire sector of the front, and often what they had were called something like 'door knockers' by the Russians because their shells just bounced off the T34s. They were also left completley unsupported by a delusional German command that never realised, despite repeated warnings, how weak they were. So you can't really simulate this, because it's down to the player how well equipped his troops are, and also how well they're trained. A way to simulate this in the game would be to have troops from conquered countries having a lower morale that can be raised by efficent training.
As someone said Romanian and Hungarian troops were treated by Germans at Stalingrad as inferior as they collapsed and allowed the Russians to create the kessel (sp?). However this was largely due to the fact that these troops were lucky if they had one anti-tank weapon for an entire sector of the front, and often what they had were called something like 'door knockers' by the Russians because their shells just bounced off the T34s. They were also left completley unsupported by a delusional German command that never realised, despite repeated warnings, how weak they were. So you can't really simulate this, because it's down to the player how well equipped his troops are, and also how well they're trained. A way to simulate this in the game would be to have troops from conquered countries having a lower morale that can be raised by efficent training.
One question that I don't think has been looked at from the beginning is the difference between Nationalist and Communist troops/guerillas, namely in China. The Communists are generally portrayed as less, but better, while the opposite is true for the Nationalist Armies. I don't know how accurate this is. The other question I wonder about... will there be one China, torn by Communist and Nationalist forces, or two Chinas, one communist, the other Kuomintang? If one, I wonder how these two bitter rivals will be modeled, surely they wont fight together?
Originally posted by TMO
Just a little patriotic reaction to "Norway certainly did not fight to the last man"
You make it sound like they just rolled over.
God I managed to offend a Norwegian and a Swede in a single post
Well judging from the tone of your posts it sounds like no harm was done (nor was meant.)And I've just watched a documentary on the part played by Norwegians in covert operations throughout North Sea / Scandinavia on History Channel here
Each country had its proud and shameful moments in WW2, war really does bring out the best and worst in people.
You can say that again. Every single country had something to be less-than-proud about. Here in Canada, while we fought against the Germans from essentially day one, we also found it necessary to round up all of our Japanese-Canadians and put them in internment camps.
But there's no need to be offended just because someone points out these moments. It's all a part of history, the good and the bad.
That's a good question, and in actuality, the Kuomintang and the Communists spent a considerable amount of power fighting each other instead of the Japanese at times. I wonder how much they'll make the Chinese AIs hate each other?
I guess there should be two Chinas; so the player could play either. If properly simulated, it could be interesting. Either you try to wipe out your enemy, or you try to reconcile and unite against the Japanese. If Chang Kai chek had chosen the second way, it is possible that the Communists would melt in the KMT.
I don´t seem to have gotten any answer about unreliable troops, that is not troops that simple perform ill but are prone to mutinyfor example Russian army of liberation or SS Kama.
Secondly even swedes must realise that great parts of the swedish officercorps were nazis or sympathiesers for example the CiC of the volunteer corps sent to finland who vas nr2 in Svensknationalsocialistisksamling.
Secondly even swedes must realise that great parts of the swedish officercorps were nazis or sympathiesers for example the CiC of the volunteer corps sent to finland who vas nr2 in Svensknationalsocialistisksamling.