Unreliable forces

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I´m wondering if the game will portrait that many forces in Europe
were quite unreliable for example various puppet forces but also standing armies like the yugoslav and swedish armies and vill there be any diffrence between communist and nationalist guerillas?

 

[Spruce]

Think about people from Nazi occupied territory that were attracted by propaganda to fight Bolsjevism.

But reality was that these troops either lacked adequate military training, good equipment and morale. Some of them lost appetite for fighting, when they arrived on the Russian battlefield.

These troops were most of the time used for front line defense (fill the holes), to act as cannon fodder in big operations or to simply be there wearing a Nazi uniform.

It would be unfair to claim that these troops would always perform bad. If they receive adequate commanders, have some combat experience and are equiped well. I think the only issue with these troops is morale sensitiveness.

Anyhow if you badly equip your regular forces, they'll also perform bad.

So supporting troops can fight with equal effect as regular troops, if the right resources are allocated. But morale is an issue here!

 

[unmerged(7996)]

It is just my opinion but I think these troops (from conquered countries) generally would not be trusted/respected by the German soldiers (no matter how well equiped they were).

While an enemy soldier can be grudgingly respected as a tough advesary, a man who has chosen to sell out his country is not someone I would want covering my back. Similarly a division of sell outs is not what I want holding my flank.

Just a thought...

Edit: Welcome to the forum arc3371.

 

[Spruce]

I can not agree.

The people that joined the Nazi forces against the Bolsjevists ("=Bolsjevists was the propaganda name, used to fight them) had a different perception on this.

They joined the Nazis to fight the communists, a lot of people followed the calls to fight communism. It was even preached in some churches!

After the war, they were considered as traitors. But they never joined the Nazi's to backstab their own people. Consider it as brainwashing.

So they were not considered as traitors but as inferior because of the Ubermensch doctrine of the Nazis.

In fact, a lot of these divisions were considered as elite divisions and called to action on multiple occasions, ... but as the war progressed morale went really bad. And they were the first to lack good supplies.

They realised that they didn't went to fight the communists but to assist the facsists...

 

[unmerged(7996)]

Thanks for the additional information. I was unaware of how deep the anticommunist sentiment was.

 

[unmerged(255)]

Just a note: "The struggle against Bolshevism" wasn't the only propoganda Nazis used to recruit foreign troops. Thousands of Turkic peoples joined the German army to simly fight the much hated 'Russians.' Kazaks (30,000) and Azerbeijanis (20,000) were the largest in number amongst them. After the end of the war, some Turkic peoples (such as the Crimean Tatars) were completely removed from their homelands and were forced to settle in Central Asia.

 

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I knew that one...not the numbers though. My original post was only pertaining to French troops (or troops from other conquered nations). Sorry if it was unclear.

 

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Originally posted by Backpack
My original post was only pertaining to French troops (or troops from other conquered nations).

If you talk about Vichy troops, I agree, they not always fought well against the Allies (but in Syria and Dakar they proved to be very good), instead the French that fought for the SS were good soldiers, and didn't betray Germany (the Waffen-SS division Charlemage defended Berlin in 1945). I've read that there were also French troops in Valtellina (an Italian valley that was the last natural fortress of Fascit Italy) in spring of 1945. I've not read of a lack of morale in foreign troops used by Germany, mostly because they were volunteers. Moreover the ex-Soviets that became allied of the Germans knew that they were going to die if captured by USSR, so fought very well (expecially the Cossacks).

 

[unmerged(9362)]

French troops in Valtellina

I've done a research: there were some French troops in Valtellina, 2 battalions of Milice Française led by gen. Joseph Darnand. As you can see they were ready to fight even in the spring of 1945, and for Italy (but frankly I don't understand the history of WW2 as an history of a war of nations, it was mostly a war of ideologies, expecially after the attack on Soviet Union).

 

[unmerged(255)]

Just found a reference to a small number of Brits who served in the German army (British Free Corps) --- not sure if they were simply a historical oddity or not. It's clear however that "foreign troops" should be represented in HOI somehow, would give great flavor if not total efficiency in combat.

PS: If I recall correctly, there were Spaniards during the defense of Berlin against Soviets as well

 

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What about the Hiwis used by the German army, even in combat roles? I hear that their numbers were not insignificant.

 

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Originally posted by tuna Just found a reference to a small number of Brits who served in the German army (British Free Corps) --- not sure if they were simply a historical oddity or not.

The British nazi-fascist forces were, as far as I know, the most little in WW2. John Amery, son of Leopold Stennet Amery, Secretary of State for India in Winston Churchill's war cabinet, led the British Free Corps (also known as: Britisches Freikorps, St. Georgs-Legion, Legion of St. George). That formation was really tiny (only 30 members, including 3 canadian, 3 australians, 3 south africans and 1 new zealande), but I've read somewhere that the total number of British PoW's that became nazis and joined other formations was of about 3,000, but I'm not sure.
Moreover UK had its Fascist Party (the National Union of Fascists) led by Oswald Mosley (who was interned in 1940), but it wasn't very important. But, if Germany had occupied Great Britain, a new govern led by Mosley with the former king Edward VIII (who was made governor of the Bahamas during WW2 to prevent possible his collaboration with Germany) would have been quite possible.

PS: If I recall correctly, there were Spaniards during the defense of Berlin against Soviets as well

I know Spain sent the Azul Division to fight the Bolsheviks, it's possible that some of them were still fighting in Berlin in 1945 (there were even some nazi Tibetans!).

 

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Originally posted by The Brain
What about the Hiwis used by the German army, even in combat roles? I hear that their numbers were not insignificant.

Who were Hiwis?

 

[vertinox]

Originally posted by Spruce
It would be unfair to claim that these troops would always perform bad. If they receive adequate commanders, have some combat experience and are equiped well. I think the only issue with these troops is morale sensitiveness.

Anyhow if you badly equip your regular forces, they'll also perform bad.

So supporting troops can fight with equal effect as regular troops, if the right resources are allocated. But morale is an issue here!

Yeah, the Germans seems to blame the Hungarians for collapsing so quickly on the flanks of Stalingrad... Saying they were cowardly fleeing or surrendering... While in reality they fought for 3 days...

Which was amazing considering it was armored thrusts against Hungarian infantry with NO ANTI-TANK WEAPONS! AT guns... Mines or other devices...

 

[vertinox]

Originally posted by Wido

Who were Hiwis?

The most ill fated group of persons in the ranks of the Wehrmacht...

Hiwis were Russian soldiers in the service of the Wehrmacht.... There were about 50,000 in the international coalition with the 300,000 some troops at Stalingrad... I believe out of that was 175,000 to 200,000 actual Germans while the rest were Itlanian, Hungarian, and a few other nationalities...

But no Russians were recorded being captured at Stalingrad which of course was to the reason that by Stalin decree if you even surrendered you were no longer considered a Russian... Although I'm sure allot of the hiwis suffered the same fate as the Germans through attrition, but if you were a Russian (or Ukranian for that matter) found with a German uniform on then it was pretty certain that you would be shot within 30 minutes of that discovery.

 

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Originally posted by vertinox
The most ill fated group of persons in the ranks of the Wehrmacht...Hiwis were Russian soldiers in the service of the Wehrmacht.... There were about 50,000 in the international coalition with the 300,000 some troops at Stalingrad

Thank you!

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Wido

.

I know Spain sent the Azul Division to fight the Bolsheviks, it's possible that some of them were still fighting in Berlin in 1945 (there were even some nazi Tibetans!).

Thanks for the great info on British Free Corps...but Nazi Tibetans?!? 20th century history is truly bizarre

 

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Originally posted by tuna
...but Nazi Tibetans?!? 20th century history is truly bizarre

I've read that, after the conquest of Berlin, the Soviets found a group of Tibetans in SS uniforms that had committed suicide. Later it was discovered that they had been sent to Germany for a cultural exchange by the govern of Tibet. Really bizarre!

 

[Johan Elisson]

but also standing armies like the yugoslav and swedish armies

Sweden had a conscription army, that surely was not unreliable. Or what do you mean?

/Elisson

 

[Lethke]

Originally posted by Elisson


Sweden had a conscription army, that surely was not unreliable. Or what do you mean?

/Elisson

Maybe he also means equipment wise?