Unreformed Pagan conversions?

[theStormWeaver]

If a religion is bugged, in such a way playing it becomes completely unfeaseble, then that bug should be corrected, no matter how "minor" or "unimportant" that religion is. Yes the games do indeed focus on historical accuracy, and this, regrettebly, means that Abrahamic religions get most of the focus. Though regardless, dismissing Helenicism is just as bad as dismissing any religion that would give way historicly to the Christian scourge that sweept accros Europe through the turn of the millenium. The devs have supported other pagan religions, and the new earlier srtart date means Helenicism is more historicly relevant than it has ever been, and asking to have a bug fixed, to then have a whole community come down on you to say fuck you, your religion and choices in these game are irrelevant and unimportant, is just a sign of selfishness and cruelty.

NOT A BUG. Hellenism is not a supported part of the game. Full Stop.
PD put it in just so we could have a more accurate history of the Byzantine title history. That is all. They made no promise, and have no obligation, to provide any additional support for this religion. The fact that they fixed the "Demand Religious Conversion" diplo-action for pre-reformed religions was pure good will on their part.

This does not affect only the Hellenics, but also all other unreformed pagans (So, Stormweaver and others, changing it for other pagans would automatically fix Hellenic and Generic Pagan conversion) - It's a stupid change/bug. Yes, they should be damn slow compared to reformed pagans and organized religions (Hence the ''Inferior at Conversion'' in the summary) but currently only the player can use the Diviner at all when playing pagan, which is just dumb and adds a disadvantage to the AI. (I don't think they even use the diviner for other purposes like researching cultural tech..)

Its completely intentional to reflect the fact that unreformed pagans were non-proselytizing faiths. They were syncretic by nature, so converting provinces via your Chaplain doesn't make any sense. If you want to convert conquered territory faster you need to convert or reform.

Or use a mod.

 

[Jango40]

Its completely intentional to reflect the fact that unreformed pagans were non-proselytizing faiths. They were syncretic by nature, so converting provinces via your Chaplain doesn't make any sense. If you want to convert conquered territory faster you need to convert or reform.

Or use a mod.

''Inferior at Conversion'' vs. Cannot convert At all. Besides, the player can still convert, this only affects the AI which makes it weaker.

 

[Zsrai]

''Inferior at Conversion'' vs. Cannot convert At all. Besides, the player can still convert, this only affects the AI which makes it weaker.

This I agree with, because at the LEAST they should be able to convert each other. The only thing I can think of is that the AI was fubar'd and always using Proselytize instead of Zealotry (or whatever that Tribal action is called), and PDS wanted Pagan tribes to actually use that action to gain Piety and event troops. Which is actually pretty ham fisted, and another reason to change it back.

EDIT: This isn't to say that there should be a high, medium, or any change for Pagans to convert provinces/people away from "main stream"/reformed faiths. That chance should be pretty minimal if it exists at all. They should still be able to convert unreformed Pagan to unreformed Pagan though.

 

[Zohtun]

If you re-read what's been said, Pagans do that. Unreformed and Pre-reformed will convert unreformed pagan provinces.

 

[Jango40]

If you re-read what's been said, Pagans do that. Unreformed and Pre-reformed will convert unreformed pagan provinces.

Indeed.

They should be able to convert reformed/organized religions as well, just be damn slow - just like the player.

 

[Ayn Mandarb]

Indeed.

They should be able to convert reformed/organized religions as well, just be damn slow - just like the player.

But its a waste of their seer. So it makes no sense for the AI to do it, so a sensible AI doesn't.

If you as a human want to, fine. But the AI shouldn't be forced to waste its only seer. Most dukes rule for how long? About 25 years? At a 1% chance then there is a very high probability that in a vassal dukes entire lifetime as liege he'd never convert even a single province, so why what reason does he have to waste his only seer to do something he'll likely never see a reward on. Your vassals aren't a homogenous horde trying to act to help their overlord's hive mind interests, they've all got their own petty interests and in their own interests attempting to covert an organised religion is a waste of time.

A vassal duke simply doesn't care what your kingdom looks like 300 years from now, that's your job as player for which you have your own seer. A vassal duke cares about his own selfish interests for the duration of his time as duke and is intended to act accordingly.

Working as intended.

 

[Jango40]

But its a waste of their seer. So it makes no sense for the AI to do it, so a sensible AI doesn't.

If you as a human want to, fine. But the AI shouldn't be forced to waste its only seer. Most dukes rule for how long? About 25 years? At a 1% chance then there is a very high probability that in a vassal dukes entire lifetime as liege he'd never convert even a single province, so why what reason does he have to waste his only seer to do something he'll likely never see a reward on. Your vassals aren't a homogenous horde trying to act to help their overlord's hive mind interests, they've all got their own petty interests and in their own interests attempting to covert an organised religion is a waste of time.

A vassal duke simply doesn't care what your kingdom looks like 300 years from now, that's your job as player for which you have your own seer. A vassal duke cares about his own selfish interests for the duration of his time as duke and is intended to act accordingly.

Working as intended.

It's not working as intended because they don't use their diviner at all, unless they convert unreformed pagans. No, they don't research cultural tech or improve religious relations.

Besides, the chance to convert a province is quite high (Still not as high as the chance of reformed religions though) with a high-learning diviner and lots of moral authority, even for pagans. It's not a waste in that case.

Also, zealous dukes should care about how my realm looks. They should try to convert the provinces.

 

[Ayn Mandarb]

How do you know they're not researching cultural tech or improving relations? Both of which would be the smart thing to do.

Zealous dukes should care how their realm looks, not yours.

 

[Nyrael]

''Inferior at Conversion'' vs. Cannot convert At all. Besides, the player can still convert, this only affects the AI which makes it weaker.

It is not about inferiority: most Pagans downright despised Proselytizing out of their culture group... and Hellenic Pagans disliked Proseltyzing and any faiths which did it (it is not only Christians and Jews, they were cranky with others who did it as well).

What many fail to understand is that most Pagans (Tengriism and Druidism being a few exceptions) did not view religion the same way as Abrahamic faiths did. To them, religion was a cultural and traditional thing and they did not see converting other cultures to it as making much sense (as such proselytizing outside the culture group for most Unreformed Pagans makes little sense) and a Zealous Pagan would be extra opposed to spreading the faith. Christians and Muslims saw religion as something that must be spread, especially on Pagans whom they saw as primitives, thus why they proselytize.

It is actually strange how many on this forum want Pagans to be Christians with a different icon (which beats the whole point IMO) rather than ask for special Pagan mechanics like Mass Settlements (Pagans loved packing their bags and settling other places), easier time governing a multi-religious realm (as they don't proselytize, others are less afraid, with Abrahamic vassals trying to spread the faith and the Monarch having another Crown Law to stop, allow or persecute it) and the Monarch having extra authority (no church or book telling them what they can do). Might as well add some cults as some kind of political factions to spice things up.

 

[Ayn Mandarb]

Well said.

 

[Zohtun]

It is not about inferiority: most Pagans downright despised Proselytizing out of their culture group... and Hellenic Pagans disliked Proseltyzing and any faiths which did it (it is not only Christians and Jews, they were cranky with others who did it as well).

What many fail to understand is that most Pagans (Tengriism and Druidism being a few exceptions) did not view religion the same way as Abrahamic faiths did. To them, religion was a cultural and traditional thing and they did not see converting other cultures to it as making much sense (as such proselytizing outside the culture group for most Unreformed Pagans makes little sense) and a Zealous Pagan would be extra opposed to spreading the faith. Christians and Muslims saw religion as something that must be spread, especially on Pagans whom they saw as primitives, thus why they proselytize.

It is actually strange how many on this forum want Pagans to be Christians with a different icon (which beats the whole point IMO) rather than ask for special Pagan mechanics like Mass Settlements (Pagans loved packing their bags and settling other places), easier time governing a multi-religious realm (as they don't proselytize, others are less afraid, with Abrahamic vassals trying to spread the faith and the Monarch having another Crown Law to stop, allow or persecute it) and the Monarch having extra authority (no church or book telling them what they can do). Might as well add some cults as some kind of political factions to spice things up.

Please tell me you've made a suggestion for this. Pagans rather need their mechanics to diverge from the Abrahamic religions and having their own way to deal with wrong-religion areas would be brilliant (and would make the pagan game more interesting than the current pagan game encouraging simply pushing your kingdom/empire outwards until you can reform it).

 

[nkibilko]

I made a thread about this before... I've ruled Ireland as a Norse pagan for over 300 years without any interruption, and still not one county has turned Norse. That's just insane. There wouldn't be a single trace of jesus left on that island after 300 years of zealous vikings ruling every inch of it.

 

[ragnarok246]

How do you know they're not researching cultural tech or improving relations? Both of which would be the smart thing to do.

You look at your vassals court and check what his councilors are up to?

 

[ragnarok246]

I made a thread about this before... I've ruled Ireland as a Norse pagan for over 300 years without any interruption, and still not one county has turned Norse. That's just insane. There wouldn't be a single trace of jesus left on that island after 300 years of zealous vikings ruling every inch of it.

Do mean religion, culture, or both?

 

[Ayn Mandarb]

You look at your vassals court and check what his councilors are up to?

Didn't know that showed up. Never seen it before thanks.

If they're not doing anything at all that's stupid. It should be the lowest priority but if nothing else is done then that should be.