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TheMeInTeam

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Which changes are unpopular varies between people. For example, I think the changes to stabhit threshold and rules from 1.14 are downright grimey, and the ADM 5 1st idea nerfing to ROTW is a major pain. The primitive ship nerf carried no legitimate justification ever, and in fact ran counter to developer statements even as it was made.

The most unambiguously awful recent change is the 1.14/1.15 fort movement rules (extremely convoluted and unintuitive, to the point where you can't credibly call it "zone of control"). Nerfing non-Abrahamic religions is questionable too, but not nearly so egregious.

Military access is awful, though not recent, made worse by the fact that its original implementation was more straightforward and less broken, even carrying a larger tactical element than we have now.

On the other hand, the artillery along the shorelines that you don't control would turn your galleys to matchsticks the moment they attempt to enter the Bosphorus.

It's roughly the only strait that typically sees blockage where this point is plausible though.
 
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Ratanka

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Recently, a number of changes have been added to the game which weren't popular among them :
-Blocking straits : to block an opponent from crossing a strait you now need to control one of the two provinces forming it, which took out one of the cool mechanics for fleets and reduced their use (and we all know that it's not what fleets need) and it was done to help Denmark survive. This change ended up making Sweden become independent a lot less likely but also made the good old trick of blocking the Bosphore and winning against the Ottomans quite impossible to do. In one of my games preceding the last patch, playing as Shiba, I had invested in a powerful fleet, making me the strongest damyo in terms of ships. When the emperor attacked me with help of the two other remaining damyos I managed to block them in the Shikoku island, which payed off my investment in ships.
-The new culture system coming in 1.16 : which is nor realistic nor historical nor a good option for gameplay. It would make expansion easier since the culture groups are apparently grouped by their geographical positions, it will also buff the Ottomans who clearly don't need that. I will redirect you to another thread which proposes a solution to that https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...oups-need-to-be-removed.904810/#post-20570994
Paradox Interactive is known for listening to their community, and I hope they will try to improve on these aspects. I'm not complaining, if these changes are conserved and made I will live with it and continue playing this beautiful game with some regrets nonetheless and I would wan to know their position on this and even hear their arguments.


that u even asked "am i the only one" after you post " non popular stuff" pretty much explains that this is unpopular ONLY BY YOU ...

- blocking straits: this is pretty much simple amazing and one of the best adds to the game since YEARS! it was one of the biggest way to abuse AI and i am SO GLAD its gone !!!
- new culture: we have 1.15 !!! u see stuff about future and are like NOOO CHANGEEEES ... grow up man, u cant say they are not good for gameplay u had 0 seconds of gameplay with it, i think it can be amazing or bad but we cant know yet ... overall cultures was rly strange so far and the changes seems nice


u wanna listen to rage you have about 1 thing that is pretty much the best they implent since years and one thing THAT ISNT EVEN IN THE GAME ...
so yes paradox is listening to the community and i say THANKS paradox for the amazing blocking strait change !
 
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Ixor779

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Why do some members of the community insist on projecting their own dislike of changes as being representative of the whole community?
At no point did he say everyone.
that u even asked "am i the only one" after you post " non popular stuff" pretty much explains that this is unpopular ONLY BY YOU ...

- blocking straits: this is pretty much simple amazing and one of the best adds to the game since YEARS! it was one of the biggest way to abuse AI and i am SO GLAD its gone !!!
- new culture: we have 1.15 !!! u see stuff about future and are like NOOO CHANGEEEES ... grow up man, u cant say they are not good for gameplay u had 0 seconds of gameplay with it, i think it can be amazing or bad but we cant know yet ... overall cultures was rly strange so far and the changes seems nice


u wanna listen to rage you have about 1 thing that is pretty much the best they implent since years and one thing THAT ISNT EVEN IN THE GAME ...
so yes paradox is listening to the community and i say THANKS paradox for the amazing blocking strait change !
Don't agree with him? Then be reasonable and avoid personal attacks. He stated his dislikes very mildly, no need to be aggressive.
 
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funguide

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The changes mentioned by the OP I thought were all good changes. Straits are hard to block if you control both sides even in real life. Cultures...well cultures is getting another overhaul apparently in 1.16, whatever will see when I get it.

Things I don't like is a long list but HRE mechanic changes are at the top.
 
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Voldurak78

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On the other hand, the artillery along the shorelines that you don't control would turn your galleys to matchsticks the moment they attempt to enter the Bosphorus.

In the absence of any such effects, the current system is probably the best compromise. It's not great, but the previous system was every bit as illogical while also being far worse for gameplay.
I think the best way to do blocking straits right is to make fleets who are stationed in the straits suffer attrition unless you own one of the provinces of this strait, and to completely stop an army from crossing your blockade must be reaching 75% or higher. If it is lesser between 75% and 30% the crossing armies will suffer from a certain amount of attrition. But if you blockading percentage is smaller than 30% then armies will cross with a slight amount of attrition.
 
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pphair

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I dont mind either change so you are not talking about the entire community. I do however feel like paradox are removing a lot of exploit a player can pull of in single player for no good reason. While i dont mind it time could be better spend on other areas of the game, as a player i can simply choose to not use certain exploits.
Exploits usually mean there is something broken in the game, which needs to be fixed. Just because its fun/useful doesn't mean its okay to leave the game broken.
 
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Freudia

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Exploits usually mean there is something broken in the game, which needs to be fixed. Just because its fun/useful doesn't mean its okay to leave the game broken.

Exploits don't imply something is broken. Exploits imply something is being used in a manner not 'intended', while bugs imply something is broken.
 
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Nereid

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Exploits don't imply something is broken. Exploits imply something is being used in a manner not 'intended', while bugs imply something is broken.

As a developer myself I would say it's the other way around most times. A bug often doesn't mean something it's broken. An exploit often means there is something "broken by design". I really depends on the bug or on the exploit.
 
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panionios

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Yeah, I strongly disagree with these changes. I probably won't play EUIV that much in the future, and I definitely won't play vanilla.
 
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Don't really mind the strait thing. I've taken advantage of the old system a few times before, but it's no great loss IMO.

As for the culture thing. I've no opinion yet. I want to see how it actually works in game before deciding what I think about it. Seems only fair to at least try it first.
 

seriousgigi

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The Ottos tend to be pretty strong, but on the other hand I've never seen them reach their historical size, so...

ottomans need to take miltary ideas rather than cultural buffs. especially (defensive, offensive and quality) to stand against op commonmonster. but they prefer to take trash ideas like maritime, naval, exploration and influence. so any european country (austria, naples, commonwealth, russia or sometimes hungary) can easily defeat ottomans ahistorically because most of them take military ideas unlike the ottomans.

also game has a lot of bugs, sometimes i watch AI ottomans in observe mode and they spend their monarch powers to raising city development which is absolutally ridiculous because they are already fall behind at all techs and ideas.

the other ridiculous thing is advisors. AI ottomans usually have 2x more ships than their naval force limit but they don't use advisors to catch up the tech. those ones are so annoying ...
 
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pgroves

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I'm still doing pretty well as as Byzantium despite the straits changes, just needs different strategies

Also Sweden has wrecked Denmark in my last two games

EDIT: still a bit sad to see navies get even less useful, though - really hope navies get a proper overhaul soon
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Exploits usually mean there is something broken in the game, which needs to be fixed. Just because its fun/useful doesn't mean its okay to leave the game broken.

Until the developers can come up with a better definition of "exploit" than "whatever Johan and Wiz says is an exploit is an exploit", identifying which in-game actions constitute exploits and which ones are merely effective play will be *necessarily* convoluted and inconsistent. Different standards are applied to that word every time it gets used.

Remember, carrying animist decisions into your switch to Buddhism is supposedly an "exploit". But picking a nation that begins the game Catholic is not an "exploit". That is completely inverted from conversion strength, number of missionaries, and bonuses available. If you used any relevant standard to gameplay strength, picking a Catholic nation is more of an "exploit". But people don't talk in those terms, and developers don't change the game in those terms.

Was building ships as a primitive an exploit? Was blocking the Bosphorus? On what criteria does something become an exploit? At one point both were WAD mechanics that functioned precisely the game's original design intended; Ottomans even picked naval ideas to compensate this weakness back in 1.5. Now, magically it's an "exploit".

As a developer myself I would say it's the other way around most times. A bug often doesn't mean something it's broken. An exploit often means there is something "broken by design". I really depends on the bug or on the exploit.

Developer or not, either you're applying consistent standards or not. The way the EU IV team has handled changes of this nature, the word "exploit" means *absolutely nothing*. It's a joke term, readily replaced by "mechanics I happen not to like, regardless of whether I used to like them". If everything is potentially an exploit, then exploit as a term has no differentiating standard from "mechanic".

It's so bad that more than once in this game, players and developers alike have called *demonstrably-inferior-to-alternatives* actions "exploits", as if you're somehow exploiting the game by deliberately picking a weaker option that's novel.

Could ships block the Bosphorus in this time period, realistically? No. Could the English navy block Irish troops crossing into Scotland? Still want to say "no"? Is preventing this crossing EXPLOITING the game?

The policy on this has consistently led to some of the worst changes implemented in EU IV.
 
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zsImmortal

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ottomans need to take miltary ideas rather than cultural buffs. especially (defensive, offensive and quality) to stand against op commonmonster. but they prefer to take trash ideas like maritime, naval, exploration and influence. so any european country (austria, naples, commonwealth, russia or sometimes hungary) can easily defeat ottomans ahistorically because most of them take military ideas unlike the ottomans.

They do in my games, but they're still a doormat when they take quantity against any serious European/Westernized military.
 

Quaade

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I´ve seen sweden get indenpendent nearly every game, just later... Which is more historical, but not how it historically happened... It involved many years of infighting before an actual peace was made where they gained their independence, but this is a better scenario than prior where Denmark was raped after 2 years and then annexed by all around it... They still do get raped, just later...

Also, navies are still important just in another way and it seems like their will be some naval overhaul in next DLC... Suggested by Johan who may have slipped the title before planned, and fits the numbers at the top of the screenshots of last weeks DD... So fingers crossed
 

paulatreides0

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Until the developers can come up with a better definition of "exploit" than "whatever Johan and Wiz says is an exploit is an exploit", identifying which in-game actions constitute exploits and which ones are merely effective play will be *necessarily* convoluted and inconsistent. Different standards are applied to that word every time it gets used.

Devs make the game with a specific vision of what they have in mind for the game, so, yeah, they do get to define exploits. If they think a certain feature violates what they had in mind for the game, then they have every right to call it an exploit and remove it, as it is not part of the envisioned rule set they had in mind.

Different standards are applied to that word every time it gets used.

It's almost as if the world isn't black-and-white, but dynamic and based on a multitude of ever-changing factors that can make one arrive at different opinions at different times over similar or different issues...

Remember, carrying animist decisions into your switch to Buddhism is supposedly an "exploit".

Err...yes, because you were no longer animist, thus you didn't get to keep the animist buffs since you weren't animist. Just like you no longer get to keep Catholic buffs when you switch to reformed/protestant.

But picking a nation that begins the game Catholic is not an "exploit".

If you used any relevant standard to gameplay strength, picking a Catholic nation is more of an "exploit". But people don't talk in those terms, and developers don't change the game in those terms.

...No, because that's not what is going on. Catholic is not inherently any more powerful than any of the other major religious (Hindu/Protestant/Reformed/Orthodox/Sunni/Shia/etc.). It, is however, more powerful than the "primitive religions" like shamanist and animist...which makes sense, since part of the whole point in how they are designed is that these old religions are supposed to go extinct. You can still keep them, but generally, you are better off using one of the more powerful main religions.

Was building ships as a primitive an exploit?

Was blocking the Bosphorus?

Yes, it was exploity as all Kanye to allow you to beat the Ottomans by building tons of ships as Byz. Of course, we could adopt a more realistic system where ship building is constrained by a lot more factors, such as the amount of wood and building material around, make ships have a more realistic representation of maintenance where they can easily eat up half your GDP and so on, and not just the amount of money that you have, but then that would just hurt everyone else even more. The blocking that exploit is a far more elegant solution than making large navies far more painful to build to begin with.

On what criteria does something become an exploit?

On the grounds that the developers think it's an exploit because they think it does not fit in line with what should be the rule set for the game.

At one point both were WAD mechanics that functioned precisely the game's original design intended; Ottomans even picked naval ideas to compensate this weakness back in 1.5. Now, magically it's an "exploit"

It was always an exploit. If the Ottomans had to pick an idea group to beat a small nation then there's something wrong there.

It's so bad that more than once in this game, players and developers alike have called *demonstrably-inferior-to-alternatives* actions "exploits", as if you're somehow exploiting the game by deliberately picking a weaker option that's novel.

Except in many cases those "weaker" options gave you far more power in the long run. E.g. the overseas coring cost as the Ottomans which let you almost double your development when fighting the Mamluks and only pay a fraction of the coring cost you'd normally need to pay (which would already be ridiculously cheap due to Ottoman ideas and admin group usually being the first idea group chosen). In the short run, but in the long run, you'd be substantially more powerful because you get all that development for like ~25% of the cost, and all you had to do was wait in connecting your lands, which itself wasn't a problem, since the Mamluks are already easy enough to throw around with your base territory.
 
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