Unnaturally Long Reign

[TheAzureLiger]

I can agree with a bit of that, but the -40 base after ~200 years should remain until you go by decision to proclaim yourself a god.

You can get it back to 0 base for everyone in your religion, but as a founder of a new religion others can declare great holy war, right? Should be a mechanic where the Great Holy War is religion free. Anyone who hates you can join. And as someone not sharing immortality, foreign rulers should hate you, regardless of how their religion historically might revere immortals. They want it, you're not sharing it. More than enough of a Cassus Belli. If they lose they lose moral authority and subsequent higher chance to convert to your religion, but if they win it'll be like decadence. They take your top title and vassalize you in an attempt to wring out the secrets of immortality as the liege.

What I personally want is Immortality as a chore after a few hundred years. Not as currently where it is an easy coast to the end of the game. I'd like to emphasize that a few hundred years with what is likely a genius is more than enough of a perk. You should work to keep it.

Exactly, altough specifically for Islam and Reformed Norse where you already are the head of religion, couldn't it just be a case of divinely given immortality? I mean, wouldn't they consider it less of you hoarding immortality and more of you being a demigod or somesuch for the Norse wherein the immortality is in the bloodline or in the case of the Caliph as an infallible prophet whom Allah has given his gifts?

 

[dragoon9105]

In the diplo immortality event the norse goddess of eternal life helps you find the tree the gods ate from to become immortal so you could make a case the gods of the norse pantheon have simply welcomed a new brother/sister into their ranks, you

 

[marko river]

Immortals pretty much break the game in how easy it becomes.

Most of it comes from the long reign bonus, which after many years makes you incredibly stable with no effort whatsoever. I've played it and I have basically zero factions and zero attempts at my life unless I purposely encourage rivals.

As if you would want, as vassal to undying king, growing up listening about this work of devil or devil himself, Nosferatu, vampire, undead, rulling over lands for centuries.... as if you would reeeealy want to start messing with him I don't think so... More like long reign bonus disappears and "I'm filling my pants" bonus starts to rise... And zealots would actually hate him because it's surely not work of God... you know, zombies are more like Godly work, but not undyings

On the serious note, I somewhat agree that this basic just get positive bonus is a bit boring.

Anyway, while we're on subject of immortals, how about this:
100 years before the game is over all immortals, regardless of are they land lords or just courtiers at that moment, get unchangeable War focus and Duelist trait and become rivals with all the rest of immortals... And occasionally fight each other with higher death percentage. If one dies, winner gets his base martial skill in addition to his.

And if your character is immortal and there are more than one left when game is over, you get special event that you are packing your thing and sailing west into unknown.... and eventually reach new lands, north of Aztec (where NY will be build, mind you) as all other immortals are arriving.... You know, there can be only one.

I think in this case immortality would need to happen slightly more often to courtiers, like selling their soul to devil or just being unlucky to be born that way

 

[Caspoi]

As if you would want, as vassal to undying king, growing up listening about this work of devil or devil himself, Nosferatu, vampire, undead, rulling over lands for centuries.... as if you would reeeealy want to start messing with him I don't think so... More like long reign bonus disappears and "I'm filling my pants" bonus starts to rise... And zealots would actually hate him because it's surely not work of God... you know, zombies are more like Godly work, but not undyings

On the serious note, I somewhat agree that this basic just get positive bonus is a bit boring.

Anyway, while we're on subject of immortals, how about this:
100 years before the game is over all immortals, regardless of are they land lords or just courtiers at that moment, get unchangeable War focus and Duelist trait and become rivals with all the rest of immortals... And occasionally fight each other with higher death percentage. If one dies, winner gets his base martial skill in addition to his.

And if your character is immortal and there are more than one left when game is over, you get special event that you are packing your thing and sailing west into unknown.... and eventually reach new lands, north of Aztec (where NY will be build, mind you) as all other immortals are arriving.... You know, there can be only one.

I think in this case immortality would need to happen slightly more often to courtiers, like selling their soul to devil or just being unlucky to be born that way

You are probably joking but they have already revealed that they will include a few immortality events referencing Highlander, and yours would probably interfere too much in actually playing as an immortal rather than just giving some bonus events.

 

[marko river]

True, I'm mostly joking, and didn't know about that reveal. But if they make it like this with option to turn it on/off, I would play the game just for the sake of it.. Then your goal is martial improving instead of conquering, religion and other stuff. Soon enough they may include real RPG elements as it goes right now Go on a mission of your own, gather 2-3 friends, try to find some holy relic in demon filled cave (hey if immortality is there then demon cave can also be there ). While you are away your country is in regency so you can't do much... but you can get some goodies to give you small bonus, or find gold, or gain friend from your company who is good fighter or spellcaster Or you can simply get wounded, maimed or die... you never know with dungeon quests.

Speaking of unnatural events and demons and immortality reminds of something else. There was a game Darklands from 1994. Late Middle Age Germany, perhaps powder already appeared but still you only used cold weapons, alchemy potions and praying to saints instead of usual magic. Roaming around the country and fighting evil, mostly looking for satanic cults, evil ghosts and such. But they come rarely, there were lot of options and events in cities and baronies and monasteries. Looked like usual RPG but with unusual many options and stuff to do around. Like when you get good reputation, burgher may ask you to kill evil baron that is terrorizing local area. And in monasteries you could pray or learn new saints... many ideas I could drag out just for flavor. Like if you learn a saint, or pray to him or he becomes you guardian like a trait... can give you diplomacy bonus or just attractive bonus... there was a saint that allow you to talk to animals, that should come in handy in CK2

But definitely there should be more satanic cults. Perhaps you can join one, get special alliance with some lords who share your taste. Or send your spies to try and find cult members, success giving bonus at church. If you are immortal, it is not just starting your own religion, posing as God or messiah, you could become leader of the cult... eating people and stuff. Like Vlad Dracula, you no longer get opinion penalties if you are tyrant, but rather you get opinion penalty if you don't stomp on someone for long, so your vassals start thinking you are weak That would be funny, tyrannometer that you must not allow to fall too low but also not too high. Well, you gotta admit there were definitely those kind of lords back then.

 

[Widowmaker94]

The pagan religions shouldn't disapprove in my opinion, especially the Norse where you become a pseudo-caliph who can divine the will of the gods, for them shouldn't immortality be a sign of divine favor?

Long life in Christianity might also be a sign of having the old biblical lifespans.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

Regardless of how religions theoretically consider immortality, I am willing to bet that the first, and most likely only, thing that would come to a religious head's mind should they actually discover an immortal is "This one is a threat".
At best, it's a potential, very concrete new god that is messing with the existing pantheon.
At worst, it's an unnatural demonic creature and the personification of all evil.

Hence, all religious institutions would go nuts as a consequence of knee-jerk defensive reactions by their heads. In slightly different ways maybe, but they all go nuts at least initially. This is valid nowadays the same as 700DC, I don't imagine any difference except a bit more actual skepticism in the first case.

Unreformed pagans might be the only ones among which your discovered immortal is not immediately touted as something bad, just because there's no head of religion that can do that. There it would likely be a matter of whether the immortal is a foreigner or not, and her previous reputation as a human.

 

[Caspoi]

Regardless of how religions theoretically consider immortality, I am willing to bet that the first, and most likely only, thing that would come to a religious head's mind should they actually discover an immortal is "This one is a threat".
At best, it's a potential, very concrete new god that is messing with the existing pantheon.
At worst, it's an unnatural demonic creature and the personification of all evil.

Hence, all religious institutions would go nuts as a consequence of knee-jerk defensive reactions by their heads. In slightly different ways maybe, but they all go nuts at least initially. This is valid nowadays the same as 700DC, I don't imagine any difference except a bit more actual skepticism in the first case.

Unreformed pagans might be the only ones among which your discovered immortal is not immediately touted as something bad, just because there's no head of religion that can do that. There it would likely be a matter of whether the immortal is a foreigner or not, and her previous reputation as a human.

And in reformed paganism the head of religion is most likely a lackey of yours or you yourself.

 

[TheAzureLiger]

I would agree that a head of religion might see you as a threat, but for Zorastrianisms or the Reformed Norse faith I don't think it's going to be a problem. For one your're the messiah and for the other you're the head of the religion akin to the Caliph.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

If you assume that the player is already those things before being discovered, then sure, s/he would have everyone celebrating them at home.

If there already is another pagan head or another Saoyshant, though...not so much

 

[dragoon9105]

The player would be in all honesty. Its almost impossible to lose those titles and tbe ai is hopelessly incapable.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Regardless of their theological standpoints, their political and base views are that you have immortality and they do not. They want it, but you seem unwilling or unable to share. Even if you were sharing they would suspect that you are actually killing people instead (not surprising given low success rate.)

That is more than enough reason to override any religious inclinations towards worshipping you. Political leadership often paid lip service to religion, even if it was less so back in the medieval ages.

 

[Caspoi]

Regardless of their theological standpoints, their political and base views are that you have immortality and they do not. They want it, but you seem unwilling or unable to share. Even if you were sharing they would suspect that you are actually killing people instead (not surprising given low success rate.)

That is more than enough reason to override any religious inclinations towards worshipping you. Political leadership often paid lip service to religion, even if it was less so back in the medieval ages.

You assume that they know the source of your longevity (which would in and of itself make the argument that they would see it as divine null) when they have no reason to do so. If they think that the source of your immortality comes from your god(s) then only the most envious would dispute the fact that it is not shared, and they would direct such wrath towards the divine instead.

 

[killerbee256]

You are probably joking but they have already revealed that they will include a few immortality events referencing Highlander, and yours would probably interfere too much in actually playing as an immortal rather than just giving some bonus events.

I would love events referencing Ghostbusters 2. The villain of that was a sorcerer ruler of Carpathia who suffered a rasputin style assassination after ruling for 150 years as a cruel tyrant. I would love a cruel immortal's assassination event to end with "Death is but a door, time is window, I'll be back!" Before their head dies.

 

[OdinX]

Personally speaking, proclaiming oneself a god instead of just trying to keep ones immortality a secret would probably piss off more people than not. Aside from that, I believe that if one's suspected of immortality, then the opinion mauls should be a flat -20 on the basis of basic human nature to fear potentially threatening differences and/or the unknown (this can be a malus or bonus from culture to culture, or if we want to get more in depth, traits). My reasoning against such high maluses is while being immortal is certainly something odd, would it really matter (much) to your vassals or courtiers if you're immortal as long as the realm is stable or you're fulfilling their desires. Again, I'm not saying that it DOESN'T matter, but it SHOULDN'T, for the most part, make or break loyalties or relationships.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Personally speaking, proclaiming oneself a god instead of just trying to keep ones immortality a secret would probably piss off more people than not. Aside from that, I believe that if one's suspected of immortality, then the opinion mauls should be a flat -20 on the basis of basic human nature to fear potentially threatening differences and/or the unknown (this can be a malus or bonus from culture to culture, or if we want to get more in depth, traits). My reasoning against such high maluses is while being immortal is certainly something odd, would it really matter (much) to your vassals or courtiers if you're immortal as long as the realm is stable or you're fulfilling their desires. Again, I'm not saying that it DOESN'T matter, but it SHOULDN'T, for the most part, make or break loyalties or relationships.

Problem is -20 is not remotely close to enough compared to the outrageous long reign bonuses you will be getting as an immortal. Now, if you meant base -20, with a modifier that constantly lowers it to that level (and gradually like long reign,) then yeah, that's what I've been proposing.

I personally see anyone absolutely hating you for being immortal, because you're literally immortal and unwilling (or unable) to share its secrets. Regardless of religion, my personal goal to attain immortality would be to get the secrets off you. When a few people who try inevitably die (due to low success rate) I would hate you even more for killing off important people, and would attempt to abduct or vassalize you to force the information out.

Religion would be just a Cassus Belli for people in power.

Also "fufilling their desires?" One of the top desires for rulers, since forever, have been to attain immortality.

 

[OdinX]

Problem is -20 is not remotely close to enough compared to the outrageous long reign bonuses you will be getting as an immortal. Now, if you meant base -20, with a modifier that constantly lowers it to that level (and gradually like long reign,) then yeah, that's what I've been proposing.

I meant the malus/bonus should be applied in-sync with my previous suggestion to cap the long reign bonus to 20. That way if you are suspected of being immortal then why would anyone (barring accepting cultures/traits) be happy about reigning for long periods of time; it's like someone saying they're surprised you can draw well despite the fact you're a world-renown artist.

I personally see anyone absolutely hating you for being immortal, because you're literally immortal and unwilling (or unable) to share its secrets. Regardless of religion, my personal goal to attain immortality would be to get the secrets off you. When a few people who try inevitably die (due to low success rate) I would hate you even more for killing off important people, and would attempt to abduct or vassalize you to force the information out.

Religion would be just a Cassus Belli for people in power.

Also "fufilling their desires?" One of the top desires for rulers, since forever, have been to attain immortality.

While it is both our opinions, I don't believe immortality would make or break fealty to a lord (entirely). Sure, it would probably be a factor to some extent, but certainly wouldn't and shouldn't become the MAIN factor in deciding whether one should/shouldn't rebel against their superiors. For instance, it can be the straw the breaks the camels back, but it wouldn't suddenly render your liege being cruel, impaler, kinslayer, excommunicated, etc, irrelevant; being immortal would/could add to the cause. The extreme lengths of suddenly wanting to kidnap someone who's suspected with immortality I would expect from exterior elements like rivaling neighbors or more powerful entities like an aging emperor with little and/or suitable heirs.

 

[marko river]

Also "fufilling their desires?" One of the top desires for rulers, since forever, have been to attain immortality.

Just a quick "I disagree": I think it was on of top desires of mankind in general, not just rulers Still is actually, we are just less likely to believe it and therefore chase it.

I think there should be a limit for positive long reign opinion. It should change over the first 1 or 2 decades, but afterwards... who cares do you rule 30 or 40 years, it no longer makes difference. The only way it could maybe make difference is if you are especially good or especially bad ruler. Like he's a tyrant and he rules for 30 years now as tyrant, enough of him - kind of thinking. Adding to that, it doesn't matter much how long you reign already, but how long you are being tyrant/kind, so other characters can get special opinion modifiers. But for base modifier, if there is limit for negative opinion for short reign (it is not -500 on your first day), then there should be limit for long reign also.

As for immortality and proclaiming oneself a god, I guess it should influence other characters based on their own traits. If you call yourself a god of any reason (not just immortality) clergy and zealots are bound to hate you, but those that are converted would love you. Speaking of which, didn't some Roman emperors proclaimed their lovers as gods and build them a temple... for some reason their goat or donkey also come to mind... sounds like Caligula's ideas

 

[General Karthos]

My immortal character died and I lost my game because I got careless with inheritance once I no longer needed to keep track of it.

But even my immortal character's reign was not the longest of any character I played. One character whose name is lost to the mists of time that I played lived to be 89. (Before Way of Life, and with no positive health traits; not strong, not a military education.) He inherited at the age of 1 from his maimed father and ruled for 87 years. The long reign penalty was absurd, but I think well-deserved. I don't see the need to cap a long-reign penalty as long as your character could still feasibly be alive. (Say, up to age 120, which the Bible states is the longest any human being can live.)

 

[Audoucet]

IMHO... You should even get more relation bonus and more stability.

But...

Massive, stacking technology malus.

For me it makes sense that an immortal ruler would kind of "freeze" the country in time. Nothing happens anymore, and your empire stays more and more behind the rest of the world.

Even a malus for your culture would make sense, since you would weigh it down. And a constant moral authority malus on your religion since you are shadowing it. Who cares about Odin, when you're ruled by the legendary Ragnarr, Immortal Viking that was already around when your grandfather was a child ? One could argue that it doesn't make sense for Fylkir and Caliph, and I agree, but immortality in itself doesn't make sense.