Unnaturally Long Reign

[highsis]

Agreed with the idea, strongly disagreed with the numbers.

If you are immortal and turn say 50, pretty much everyone will assume you are satan's child since you look young as if in 20s. After age 50 an event by MTTH should trigger that exposes your secret and -50 opinion should kick in immediately without having to wait 200 years.

Immortal is a game-winning trait at the moment. Realistically if others find out that you are some kind of devil and you aren't going to share your immortality, you will turn everyone in the world your enemy.

That's what humans would definitely do. More AIs act humanlike the better.

Anyone care to refute what I'm saying? I want to to argue this because I believe what I said is far more realistic outcome and if you are an immortal -50 malus is definitely manageable in gameplay sense; you have all the time in the world. Play as if playing a character with a set of bad traits; I think it will make immortal plays keep its fun much longer than getting bored 50 years down the road.

Back to the topic, when you turn 50 in the medieval age, even your arm skin should look sag; you are eventually going to be discovered sooner or later.

It doesn't matter what tricks you pull or how great an orator you are. It's our human nature to ostracize and eventually prosecute what's fundamentally different from us; different race alone was enough for pogrom and worse. You are not going to convince anyone you are second coming of Jesus Christ; even if you were truely Jesus reborn, you are not going to be recognized a station which will shake establish power structure and deep political interest of the church.

Given you are very talented, you will have very few allies and countless enemies trying to either kill you, uncover your secret by forcing you, take your immortality by killing you(whether it works or not), more powerful people and weaker people alike trying to bring you down with various reasons. If you are not talented, then expect to be even unable to handle internal enemies and be forced to flee your court upon being unable to deal with accusations in the worst case scenario.

In fact I would even say Jesus Christ wouldn't have become a saint had he actually been able to perform miracles; he would have more likely been accused of witchcraft and been burnt at the stake.

I believe it's both more realistic and gameplaywise interesting. I don't mind downvotes but can you try to reply with refutations, since you know, you must have a reason for doing that? I find this topic interesting for discussion.

 

[Caspoi]

Anyone care to refute what I'm saying? I want to to argue this because I believe what I said is far more realistic outcome and if you are an immortal -50 malus is definitely manageable in gameplay sense; you have all the time in the world. Play as if playing a character with a set of bad traits; I think it will make immortal plays keep its fun much longer than getting bored 50 years down the road.

Back to the topic, when you turn 50 in the medieval age, even your arm skin should look sag; you are eventually going to be discovered sooner or later.

It doesn't matter what tricks you pull or how great an orator you are. It's our human nature to ostracize and eventually prosecute what's fundamentally different from us; different race alone was enough for pogrom and worse. You are not going to convince anyone you are second coming of Jesus Christ; even if you were truely Jesus reborn, you are not going to be recognized a station which will shake establish power structure and deep political interest of the church.

Given you are very talented, you will have very few allies and countless enemies trying to either kill you, uncover your secret by forcing you, take your immortality by killing you(whether it works or not), more powerful people and weaker people alike trying to bring you down with various reasons. If you are not talented, then expect to be even unable to handle internal enemies and be forced to flee your court upon being unable to deal with accusations in the worst case scenario.

In fact I would even say Jesus Christ wouldn't have become a saint had he actually been able to perform miracles; he would have more likely been accused of witchcraft and been burnt at the stake.

I believe it's both more realistic and gameplaywise interesting. I don't mind downvotes but can you try to reply with refutations, since you know, you must have a reason for doing that? I find this topic interesting for discussion.

I disagree with the latter part to the extreme, and not only because burning Jesus at the stake would be both anachronistic and rather similar to his actual fate. People do not always react negatively to those who are different and if we go through the history of christianity not every time something "supernatural" happened around a person did people shout witch and kill them, sometimes they were considered to be miracles and the person a saint. If a person is different in a way that is superior to normal people, especially if they know how to apply this correctly, there would probably be more than a 50 % chance that people would react in a positive manner.

 

[highsis]

I disagree with the latter part to the extreme, and not only because burning Jesus at the stake would be both anachronistic and rather similar to his actual fate. People do not always react negatively to those who are different and if we go through the history of christianity not every time something "supernatural" happened around a person did people shout witch and kill them, sometimes they were considered to be miracles and the person a saint. If a person is different in a way that is superior to normal people, especially if they know how to apply this correctly, there would probably be more than a 50 % chance that people would react in a positive manner.

'Miracles' benefiting the prestige of the Church yes, 'Witchcraft' done by someone shunned or ostracized by the Church no, even if one was simply healing the poor and curing diseases; most miracles, be it true or not, were used in Church's narrative of legitimatizing their authority and prestige. Otherwise it's witchcraft.

Immortality is not something that could align with the interest of people and organizations with vested power, quite the opposite. It's not even a miracle that you could perform in front of the mass to impress them other than proclaiming you are so old. Even if you impress some of the mass by letting them observe you not age for 10 years, you aren't going to avoid being proclaimed the anti-christ or an enemy to be killed; more likely you will have created enemies by claiming as such. It's better to keep it a secret, and if it is exposed by MTTT event you are going to face oppositions.

The likelyhood of receiving positive reactions is abysmal at best with 'immortality' feat; the chance would have been better if you could perform visual miracles such as walking on water and splitting the sea, which could align with the church's narrative and interest, in which case you could earn a recognition. Immortality is a trait that benefits you and only you; it means people in power are mostly your enemies.

The only way I see it could work is if you can conceal it long enough to the enlightenment era(the event of getting discovered should be more unliekly the smarter or more capable you are) or you were an overlord of a vast empire when you gained the trait that you have no political rivals in and abroad to challenge your power directly.

 

[Caspoi]

'Miracles' benefiting the prestige of the Church yes, 'Witchcraft' done by someone shunned or ostracized by the Church no, even if one was simply healing the poor and curing diseases; most miracles, be it true or not, were used in Church's narrative of legitimatizing their authority and prestige. Otherwise it's witchcraft.

Immortality is not something that could align with the interest of people and organizations with vested power, quite the opposite. It's not even a miracle that you could perform in front of the mass to impress them other than proclaiming you are so old. Even if you impress some of the mass by letting them observe you not age for 10 years, you aren't going to avoid being proclaimed the anti-christ or an enemy to be killed; more likely you will have created enemies by claiming as such. It's better to keep it a secret, and if it is exposed by MTTT event you are going to face oppositions.

The likelyhood of receiving positive reactions is abysmal at best with 'immortality' feat; the chance would have been better if you could perform visual miracles such as walking on water and splitting the sea, which could align with the church's narrative and interest, in which case you could earn a recognition. Immortality is a trait that benefits you and only you; it means people in power are mostly your enemies.

The only way I see it could work is if you can conceal it long enough to the enlightenment era(the event of getting discovered should be more unliekly the smarter or more capable you are) or you were an overlord of a vast empire when you gained the trait that you have no political rivals in and abroad to challenge your power directly.

Depends really, especially on the religion. If you were "just" immortal and with nothing else showing that you were favoured by God then I can see christians being sceptical to the nature of your power. If we however go back to a previous example that I gave about a Zoroastrian Saoshyant then having the reaction to your immortality among your followers be anything but positive is something I am far more sceptical to.

 

[dragoon9105]

Or any pagan pantheon based religion an immortal being able to claim divine blood. Really the only people who would care are Christians

 

[mrstevehazzard]

Honestly, having differing opinions to immortality might be a nice little bit of religious flavor.

 

[Caspoi]

Or any pagan pantheon based religion an immortal being able to claim divine blood. Really the only people who would care are Christians

Not all pagans believed that the gods could or would propagate themselves with mortals. Some, like the hellenistic peoples, did but not all.

 

[Axelius]

Is there a possibility that you could fake your own death?

Not right now IIRC, but I like this idea. It will have to take some work making it balanced and having it "feel" right though.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

I would still prefer a rise and a fall over a period of time.

Rise as long reign bonus lets you coast through internal management.

Fall as people realize you are not aging and aren't willing to share its secrets.

 

[GoukaRyuu]

An opinion modifier would be too mild and dry of a consequence for immortality.

We need quest chains where the rest of the world eventually picks up on your being "unnatural" and reacts accordingly...most if not all religious institution should go nuts, and nobles and commoners alike should become very very wary beyond opinion. Not to mention jealous.

We'd also get options to avoid or forestall this, of course. Disguising to appear old while still viable, then eventually faking our own death and letting our heir inherit, only to murder and disguise as her to keep ruling...while we keep pulling it off, the world goes on as normal, but if we are discovered, all hell breaks loose.
Or maybe we might want to skip this entirely, publicly proclaiming ourselves gods by virtue of immortality and fighting anyone who says otherwise.

So many possibilities...

Plus, if the immortal character dies. Take a page out of God Emperor of Dune. Leto II purposefully stagnated mankind so that when he did finally die millenia later they would spread wide and far enough that humanity could never completely go extinct. Perhpas everyone and their mother rebels against your heir, who was never intended to be heir or groomed as such because, 15x great grandfather was immortal.

 

[dragoon9105]

The other problem I wanna just bring up with an opinion Malus is it'll be just that an opinion Malus an entire event chain would be better served (though that'd be alot of work presumably). If the cat comes out of the bag, and every one of your vassals suddenly hates, logic would dictate you find should be some way to not be permanently hated by everyone. If they add some Opinion Malus for being immortal (-50 is more than destroying a Kingdom) Then then the player should be able to respond even it means not staying christian (or another religion) and forming some sort of alternate personality cult religion, likely with the Immortal(s) as 'Gods'. Balanced around it starting with 0 Moral Authority and maybe Aztec based Holy Sites (since they are all over Europe) with the player as the head.

Otherwise having a permanent -50 with all vassals for the rest of the game doesn't sound very fun at all for something that can be so expensive and difficult to achieve.

 

[Jango40]

I really don't want a super-long-reign opinion malus to exist.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

In fact I would even say Jesus Christ wouldn't have become a saint had he actually been able to perform miracles; he would have more likely been accused of witchcraft and been burnt at the stake.

Crucified, you mean?

 

[R'hllor]

I have yet to successfully become immortal, though it would be cool to have more flavour to it. Reaching a godlike status or getting killed for practicing magic, being immortal should have some consequense so it makes sense.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

The other problem I wanna just bring up with an opinion Malus is it'll be just that an opinion Malus an entire event chain would be better served (though that'd be alot of work presumably). If the cat comes out of the bag, and every one of your vassals suddenly hates, logic would dictate you find should be some way to not be permanently hated by everyone. If they add some Opinion Malus for being immortal (-50 is more than destroying a Kingdom) Then then the player should be able to respond even it means not staying christian (or another religion) and forming some sort of alternate personality cult religion, likely with the Immortal(s) as 'Gods'. Balanced around it starting with 0 Moral Authority and maybe Aztec based Holy Sites (since they are all over Europe) with the player as the head.

Otherwise having a permanent -50 with all vassals for the rest of the game doesn't sound very fun at all for something that can be so expensive and difficult to achieve.

The dropping opinion malus is going to be just as slow as the rise. It may take 200 years to even reach -40, so after the initial feel good period before people realize you're a lich, you have a combined total of some 300 years of genius rule. 300 years is more than generous enough.

Also -40 base opinion is pretty easy to play around with marriage alliances and bribes.

 

[dragoon9105]

It's still just an arbitrary opinion malus that more can be done with though, That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[thevmag]

Also -40 base opinion is pretty easy to play around with marriage alliances and bribes.

Plus the endless "Oust Vassal X" faction wars. Every single one that fires is another change to get a Grateful bonus, so that's a nigh-infinite crop of love.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

It's still just an arbitrary opinion malus that more can be done with though, That's the point I'm trying to make.

All opinion changes are. That's how some guy with ~80 positive opinion can still faction for Council power if he has the wrong traits.

Opinion modifiers are also the most consistent way to dictate AI behavior, and again, -40 base opinion may be substantial but accumulates after centuries of genius rule. More importantly it's not actually that onerous to play with. As mentioned above after a few revolts you gain more than enough to offset it for a few decades.

The point is to either persevere or succumb to anti-lich forces as they justifiably defend the world from lich/demon/witch king/***hole who doesn't share immortality.

Because the last one is big. Regardless of religion worshiping immortals or anything, if you aren't sharing it, I definitely would hate you for it. I'd try to vassalize you by taking your top title and forcing the information out.

 

[dragoon9105]

No no your missing the point becuase while the god emperor may crush the first revolt the new random joes he puts into power will also revolt once the granted title modifier runs out despite beimg fully aware of thier god emperor existing.

Play elder kings for example with a known vampire or the warhammer mod with an immortal 'ousted' chaos worshipper. Even after the initial revolts the new guys you install will eventually hate you for no good reason besides a stubborn opinion penalty they shouldnt have kept after the first 4 revolts

Hence the suggestion to give the player an out so after they beat off the first revolt declare oneself god emperor, witch king, grand poobah whatever and then have to contend with the subsequent jihad/crusades as if they had gone heretic

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

No no your missing the point becuase while the god emperor may crush the first revolt the new random joes he puts into power will also revolt once the granted title modifier runs out despite beimg fully aware of thier god emperor existing.

Play elder kings for example with a known vampire or the warhammer mod with an immortal 'ousted' chaos worshipper. Even after the initial revolts the new guys you install will eventually hate you for no good reason besides a stubborn opinion penalty they shouldnt have kept after the first 4 revolts

Hence the suggestion to give the player an out so after they beat off the first revolt declare oneself god emperor, witch king, grand poobah whatever and then have to contend with the subsequent jihad/crusades as if they had gone heretic

I can agree with a bit of that, but the -40 base after ~200 years should remain until you go by decision to proclaim yourself a god.

You can get it back to 0 base for everyone in your religion, but as a founder of a new religion others can declare great holy war, right? Should be a mechanic where the Great Holy War is religion free. Anyone who hates you can join. And as someone not sharing immortality, foreign rulers should hate you, regardless of how their religion historically might revere immortals. They want it, you're not sharing it. More than enough of a Cassus Belli. If they lose they lose moral authority and subsequent higher chance to convert to your religion, but if they win it'll be like decadence. They take your top title and vassalize you in an attempt to wring out the secrets of immortality as the liege.

What I personally want is Immortality as a chore after a few hundred years. Not as currently where it is an easy coast to the end of the game. I'd like to emphasize that a few hundred years with what is likely a genius is more than enough of a perk. You should work to keep it.