Unlimited naval range for AI?

[Galleblære]

I have been looking through a lot of threads, but I haven't seen an answer to this.

My biggest annoyance with HoI2 was the unlimited naval range of the AI. It made the pacific war a joke, and it forces you to garrison every beach province, since the AI could sail from the other side of the world to land forces. For the big powers this was no problem, but for lesser powers such as Japan, Italy etc this can draw away valuable manpower. Instead of using manpower to fortify the pacific islands, you have to use considerable manpower to garrison the home islands and the Chinese coastal provinces. Otherwise the US will just sail up to them and land a gazillion divisions.

Now before I suggested ways to go around this. Give the AI "unlimited" range within certain sectors. In the Pacific, this sector increases when the AI captures certain islands, extending their range. In the Atlantic, should Germany have captured the UK, maybe the US needs to control the Azores or Iceland in order to invade the UK.. and after UK, they can invade mainland Europe.

 

[Titan79]

Hmmm, I can't find the right thread where I read that, but the unlimited AI naval range has been removed. Now AI fleets are limited in range to the closest port to their destination, IIRC (that means, Allied closest port to Japan is Pearl Harbor - UK navy wants to land in Japan but Pearl Harbor is more than 3000 km from Japan -> they can't do it. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure it works this way now).

 

[Galleblære]

Hmmm, I can't find the right thread where I read that, but the unlimited AI naval range has been removed. Now AI fleets are limited in range to the closest port to their destination, IIRC (that means, Allied closest port to Japan is Pearl Harbor - UK navy wants to land in Japan but Pearl Harbor is more than 3000 km from Japan -> they can't do it. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure it works this way now).

If that is true, then that is indeed fantastic news!

 

[Blecky]

If that is true, then that is indeed fantastic news!

Naval AI range are limited to each fleets range from each friendly port (it checks wich ports is closest to target province and then checks range) - This also applies for transports.

There it is

 

[Razer98K]

Hmmm, I can't find the right thread where I read that, but the unlimited AI naval range has been removed. Now AI fleets are limited in range to the closest port to their destination, IIRC (that means, Allied closest port to Japan is Pearl Harbor - UK navy wants to land in Japan but Pearl Harbor is more than 3000 km from Japan -> they can't do it. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure it works this way now).

How about Singapore?

 

[zeekater]

How about Singapore?

Or Guam and Hong Kong

 

[Titan79]

How about Singapore?

Well, I'm not a dev so I can't assure you whether what I am stating is correct or not but I think that, if Singapore is within transports' range (3000 km) from Japan then UK could invade mainland Japan, yes. That's normal, however, since it's the same thing a human player could do, if he wished so; and that's an enourmous step forward from HoI2 when all of the known world was at risk of being invaded by sea by infinite-radius-endowed ships

 

[Atomcreator]

Superb !

 

[unmerged(45180)]

Well, I'm not a dev so I can't assure you whether what I am stating is correct or not but I think that, if Singapore is within transports' range (3000 km) from Japan then UK could invade mainland Japan, yes. That's normal, however, since it's the same thing a human player could do, if he wished so; and that's an enourmous step forward from HoI2 when all of the known world was at risk of being invaded by sea by infinite-radius-endowed ships

IMHO only the americas are safe from invasions/ patrolling fleets. The only change that will happen is that kriegsmarine cannot operate on the pacific or attack the americas and IJN cannot patrol the atlantic or attack the americas.

Conclusion: this only makes the game HARDER for Germany and Japan; especially if they are AI.

I think that there should be a event which fires when you reach level V in capital ships that would make transport range 3000km and before that it would be only 2000km. This way the AI would eventually get the global reach but couldn't do it in the early game.

Also I think that the 3000km range is a bit too small. I mean, OK, it is a good thing that it isn't unlimited for the player, but currently reaching south america from anywhere else than the US is pretty much impossible, and the only way to reach the US is via Iceland or Hawaii. For example the USSR cannot reach Canada because there is no Bering strait :/ Same goes for reaching south-america or africa, or Australia trying to reach south america. Even if Japan gets madagascar via event there is no way to reach it because it is about 3100km away from the closest island and it has no port to rebase to. And we all know that they like to CLOSE ALL PORTS =D

 

[MR2]

My traditional path to the Americas is from Dakar to Cayenne. Then it is a slow slog up the coast and through Central America.

 

[Titan79]

IMHO only the americas are safe from invasions/ patrolling fleets. The only change that will happen is that kriegsmarine cannot operate on the pacific or attack the americas and IJN cannot patrol the atlantic or attack the americas.
(...)
I think that there should be a event which fires when you reach level V in capital ships that would make transport range 3000km and before that it would be only 2000km. This way the AI would eventually get the global reach but couldn't do it in the early game.
(...)

Well, although I'm against an "all over the world" radius for AI fleets/transports, I have to agree that it could be widened somehow via technology, for example. Transports could start from a range of e.g. 1500-2000 km and reach as much as 3500-4000 km given appropriate naval research. But I also think this is not very important - we'll wait and see if the devs have something on their minds about that.

 

[Fürstbischof]

My traditional path to the Americas is from Dakar to Cayenne. Then it is a slow slog up the coast and through Central America.

Guyana is a good foothold. From there on you can do a little island hopping in the caribbean. (if you have a decent navy ofc) And then it's not so hard to find a less defended beach for your landing on U.S. soil. But maybe it's more fun to go the long way - i'll try it out.

 

[Fürstbischof]

Well, although I'm against an "all over the world" radius for AI fleets/transports

It's good to see that this nuisance is gone.

I have to agree that it could be widened somehow via technology, for example. Transports could start from a range of e.g. 1500-2000 km and reach as much as 3500-4000 km given appropriate naval research.

Improving the invasion range of transports by researching naval techs is indeed the way to go. Several mods have taken this approach to make early large-scale invasions less likely. And if it hampers the player then it isn't to the disadvantage of the game. But since overlord was only done across the channel the range even at the end of the war should be at best 500 km. In HOI2-DDA are long-range invasions too easy and should be toned down. Making transports more expensive would be a good start.

But I also think this is not very important - we'll wait and see if the devs have something on their minds about that.

I'm also quite curious which solution they have found. We'll simply have to wait.

 

[Titan79]

(...)
since overlord was only done across the channel the range even at the end of the war should be at best 500 km. In HOI2-DDA are long-range invasions too easy and should be toned down. Making transports more expensive would be a good start.

Interesting point. I'd suggest, however, to keep a minimum range that could allow a US transport fleet starting from Hawaii to reach more than a Japanese island chain in the Pacific (not only e.g. the Solomons), letting Japan guess a bit about the target of American invasion if Japan itself owns more or less the same islands as it did IRL. Though IRL the Solomons were pretty much the only possibility US had to start an island-hopping campaign and Japan knew it too... so maybe what you suggested is already ok

 

[unmerged(20208)]

I've said this in HoI threads before, but the transport issues in HoI will never truly be solved until they separate frieghters and landing craft into separate units. Any time you try and represent two units with one unit you are going to have to compromise both, making transports/landing craft very bad units to combine in any war game. As long as these are represented by a single "transport" unit the problems and debate will remain.

In reality, the freighters that the transports look like (from the silohette) should be able to sail almost all the way around the world without needing to stop at a port. Meanwhile, the landing craft can't even sail across the Med by themselves... at least not effectively. You can't combine these into a single unit and this is the "root cause" of all the transport issues people discuss in HoI.

This could be solved many ways, but the way I have always suggested is simple enough to be done in a patch. Give transports the ability to "produce" 1 landing craft for each unit being transported. Landing craft can only be "produced" while the transport is in a friendly port. This would allow the freighters to have their true 10,000+ mile range while limiting landings to whatever range you choose to give landing craft (1000-2000km in Hoi would probably work well, the range could be set based on what it would allow on HoI's map).

The problem is representing freighters and landing craft with a single unit, anything that solves that problem will solve most of HoI's transport issues all by itself.

 

[Titan79]

(...)
This could be solved many ways, but the way I have always suggested is simple enough to be done in a patch. Give transports the ability to "produce" 1 landing craft for each unit being transported. Landing craft can only be "produced" while the transport is in a friendly port. This would allow the freighters to have their true 10,000+ mile range while limiting landings to whatever range you choose to give landing craft (1000-2000km in Hoi would probably work well, the range could be set based on what it would allow on HoI's map).

The problem is representing freighters and landing craft with a single unit, anything that solves that problem will solve most of HoI's transport issues all by itself.

+1

We should definitely adopt such a solution. I think your suggestion could already be good at 90%, it would maybe need minor adjustments but the base idea is top notch.

 

[BSPiotr]

So you're suggesting that you can only throw attacks from a smaller range than curent, and transport troops pretty much anywhere (big setup, smaller execution)?

This seems kind of wonky. Deathstacks on islands in the Pacific and Antlantic would increase and I'm unsure of how you'd get from germany to the USA (unless you're suggesting iceland->greenland->Canada)
Could you explain a bit more?

 

[Fancykiller65]

So you're suggesting that you can only throw attacks from a smaller range than curent, and transport troops pretty much anywhere (big setup, smaller execution)?

This seems kind of wonky. Deathstacks on islands in the Pacific and Antlantic would increase and I'm unsure of how you'd get from germany to the USA (unless you're suggesting iceland->greenland->Canada)
Could you explain a bit more?

You did not read it right. We meant, short of making it into two separate units, to some way gives transports(what carries the troops around the world) to make landing craft based on the amount of troops on the transports.

I've said this in HoI threads before, but the transport issues in HoI will never truly be solved until they separate frieghters and landing craft into separate units. Any time you try and represent two units with one unit you are going to have to compromise both, making transports/landing craft very bad units to combine in any war game. As long as these are represented by a single "transport" unit the problems and debate will remain.

In reality, the freighters that the transports look like (from the silohette) should be able to sail almost all the way around the world without needing to stop at a port. Meanwhile, the landing craft can't even sail across the Med by themselves... at least not effectively. You can't combine these into a single unit and this is the "root cause" of all the transport issues people discuss in HoI.

This could be solved many ways, but the way I have always suggested is simple enough to be done in a patch. Give transports the ability to "produce" 1 landing craft for each unit being transported. Landing craft can only be "produced" while the transport is in a friendly port. This would allow the freighters to have their true 10,000+ mile range while limiting landings to whatever range you choose to give landing craft (1000-2000km in Hoi would probably work well, the range could be set based on what it would allow on HoI's map).

The problem is representing freighters and landing craft with a single unit, anything that solves that problem will solve most of HoI's transport issues all by itself.

+1

 

[unmerged(138184)]

I think the AOD solution is at least a decent workaround given the parameters of the AI functionality and game engine. (I think unlimited range is currently in the hoi games because AI just is not capable of staging a sequential move from port to port.)

With this solution you can at least pretend in your own mind that those American transports unloading in France came from Portsmouth England rather than Portsmouth NH.

One wonders why hoi3 has never been able to squash this particular bug in some analogous fashion.

 

[unmerged(155178)]

I like the way CORE handled TPs.