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lasator

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Feb 1, 2022
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I'm hoping there are some adjustments to unity income in the upcoming 3.4 release. As it stands today, there are some significant discrepancies in the ability of each empire type to generate unity. Many of these issues have been around for a while but weren't much of an issue with the limited uses of unity. Now that unity is used for so many important systems, the differences probably need to be looked at.

I've written before about the very early game unity challenges for Hive and Machine empires. However, I wanted to shift focus from early game to mid/late game to show how those issues increase over time. Here's an example empire template that illustrates the problems and how they scale into later game:
  • 10 Colonies
  • 50 Pops per Colony for a total of 500 Pops
  • Each colony has top level capital building
In this example, I am only using baseline numbers as most of the bonuses to production are pretty consistent between empire types depending on government and civics combinations. The main point is to highlight the core differences that might be made even worse through various bonuses and builds.

Regular Empire
A regular empire has two base sources of unity income: Politicians from their capital buildings and passive income from factions.
  • 40 Politicians @ 6 unity = 240 unity/month
  • 500 pops in factions @ 75% approval (very easy to maintain) = 187.5 unity/month
For a total of 427.5 unity/month income without specifically devoting resources to unity production. This is 8% of their workforce and requires 0 building slots.

Hive Empire
A hive empire receives base unity from the jobs provided by their capital buildings but don't have any form of passive unity productions.
  • 30 Synapse Drones @ 4 unity = 120 unity/month
If a hive empire were to generate the same amount of unity as the regular empire, they would need to create 77 additional Synapse jobs that would require at least 13 building slots which occupy 13% of the empires available optional slots. This would also be 21.4% of their available workforce.

Machine Empire
A machine empire has no form of base unity production. All non trivial sources of unity require a building slot. They would need to create 107 Coordinator jobs requiring at least 18 buildings. This is 21.4% of their workforce and 18% of their available optional slots.


Hive and Machine empires have to expend 2.675 times the number or workers to produce the same amount of unity per month as do regular empires. This is with base numbers. Regular empires have many more options through government types, ethics, and civics choices that can turn this gap into a chasm. I understand that there needs to be some differences between the empire types so they remain unique in flavor and play experience. However, a nearly 3x scaler advantage in production of an extremely important resource seems outside the realm of flavor.

Not to mention the fact that the two empire types built on the concept of single consciousness and empire wide coordination would be the empires least able to produce a resource called "Unity". In my play throughs of regular empires, they are consistently 2-3 entire tradition trees ahead of my hive and machine empires at the same time scale. This also means that they are able to more easily build megastructures and ascend their planets as the game progresses. The other consequence is that they would be able to dedicate that 13.4% of their workforce and open building slots to pure technology development further exacerbating the imbalance.
 
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Not to mention the fact that the two empire types built on the concept of single consciousness and empire wide coordination would be the empires least able to produce a resource called "Unity". In my play throughs of regular empires, they are consistently 2-3 entire tradition trees ahead of my hive and machine empires at the same time scale. This also means that they are able to more easily build megastructures and ascend their planets as the game progresses. The other consequence is that they would be able to dedicate that 13.4% of their workforce and open building slots to pure technology development further exacerbating the imbalance.
I kinda agree that a single consciousness or hive consciousness should be way more "united" than a bunch of randomly assembled minds that are constantly disagreeing with one another.
I think the machine empire civic that gives maintenance drones +1 Unity should be baseline at least.

In my opinion all capital buildings should bring some high unity output job with them. (regular empires and megacorps have that, too, after all.)

In your example that would be something like 10-40 high unity jobs and ~100 maintenance drones. Which would still be a lot less than regular empires, but at least somewhat comparable.
 

lasator

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Feb 1, 2022
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I've been play testing some possible solutions and I'll be honest that I haven't found a silver bullet yet. I'm looking to tackle the problem from two directions. First is balancing the per colony discrepancy introduced by the jobs provided by the capital building. The second issue is per pop and a little harder to address with mods without support within the game engine itself. Here's what I've come up with so far.

Direct Capital Adjustments
These options look to limit changes to just the capital buildings.

Hive Capital Adjustments
Option 1: Create a new job called Core Synapse Drone that produces +8 unity and replace the standard Synapse jobs for capital buildings. This works out to generate the same basic amount of unity as a regular empire's Politician job, but ramps up slightly faster since a regular empire gets these jobs at different rates.

Option 2: Reduce the amount a Core Synapse Drone produces to +6 and add an additional job to the second level hive capital building for a total of 4 jobs.

Option 3: Based on option 2 but changes the rate of job availability based on pops outside the capital building tier similar to replicator jobs for Machine empires.

Number of Pops on ColonyRegular EmpireHive Empire (Option 1)Hive Empire (Option 2)Hive Empire (Option 3)
0-91 Politician (+6 unity)2 Core Synapse Drones (+16)2 Core Synapse Drones (+12)1 Core Synapse Drone (+6)
10-242 Politicians (+12 unity)2 Core Synapse Drones (+16)2 Core Synapse Drones (+12)2 Core Synapse Drones (+12)
25-493 Politicians (+18 unity)3 Core Synapse Drones (+24)4 Core Synapse Drones (+24)3 Core Synapse Drones (+18)
50+4 Politicians (+24 unity)3 Core Synapse Drones (+24)4 Core Synapse Drones (+24)4 Core Synapse Drones (+24)

Machine Capital Adjustments
There's just no good way to adjust the machine capital buildings to provide a balanced unity income without completely overhauling the current buildings.

Non-Capital Dependent Approaches
These options seek to provide approximate unity income levels but don't rely on the capital building to do so.

Pop Production IS Unity Production for Machines
If we add +4 unity income to the Replicator job things get interesting. Every single machine colony will have some tier of the Machine Assembly Plant building present. This would also link the base unity production to both number of colony pops and level of technology. By default there 3 Replicator jobs per colony (+2 from capital building and +1 from Machine Assembly Plant). Additional Replicator jobs are added though technology, pop growth, and planet type (Machine):
  • +2 from Capital tier 1-3
  • +3 from Capital tier 4 ( > 10 pops)
  • +4 from Capital tier 4 (> 40 pops)
  • +1 from Machine Assembly Plant
  • +3 from Machine Assembly Complex
  • +1 from Machine planet class
This provides a max of 8 jobs for a total of 32 unity income. A Machine empire would have a higher possible per colony unity income but would ramp up slower than a Hive or Regular empire overall.

Pop Based Unity Income
Without game engine support for some alternative to faction unity income, mods are stuck with job or building modification to approximate the unity income benefits afforded to Regular empires.

Better Maintenance Drones
This option applies to both Hive and Machine empires and relies on adding unity production to the Maintenance Drone job. The main drawback to this approach is that use of this job isn't smooth due to the built-in amenities inherent to the capital building and other secondary buildings such as spawning pools. For example, the tier 1 capital building for both empire types provide 8 amenities. This means that at > 10 pops, only a single Maintenance Drone job needs to be filled. This is actually optional for Hive empires as the Spawning Pool building provides 5 amenities. This is further complicated by the Charismatic and Emotion Emulator traits and their negative counterparts.

Hive Empire - Capital building is immediately upgraded and spawning pool present
# of Pops+1 Unity / Maintenance Drone+2 Unity / Maintenance Drone
1-1300
14-1712
18-2124
22-2436
25-2936
30+3 + Math.Ceiling((pops - 29) / 4)6 + Math.Ceiling((pops - 29) / 4) * 2

Hive Empire - Charismatic, Capital building is immediately upgraded, and spawning pool present
# of Pops+1 Unity / Maintenance Drone+2 Unity / Maintenance Drone
1-1300
14-1812
19-2324
24-3236
33+3 + Math.Ceiling((pops - 32) / 5)6 + Math.Ceiling((pops - 32) / 5) * 2

Machine Empire - Capital building is immediately upgraded
# of Pops+1 Unity / Maintenance Drone+2 Unity / Maintenance Drone
1-800
9-1412
15-1824
19-2236
23-2848
29-32510
33-36612
37-40714
41-44816
45-48918
491020
50+10 + Math.Ceiling((pops - 58) / 4)20 + Math.Ceiling((pops - 58) / 4) * 2

At no point in time does the actual unity per pop go above .25 unity for hive empires. This is equal to a regular empire with 50% approval for all factions. Machines do a little better maxing out at close to .33 unity per pop or 66% approval for all factions. Increasing the unity per Maintenance Drone job to +3 provides a pretty good balance compared to faction income though probably a little too much for machine empires.

My recommendation would be for Hive Maintenance drones to have +3 unity base production while Machine drones have a base of +2 with the ability to take the Maintenance Protocols civic to reach +3 unity (this would be similar to the faction based bonus civics from regular empires). These jobs would NOT benefit from administrator bonuses and only benefit from global unity bonuses and basic worker output bonuses.

Obviously the upkeep of the various jobs would need to be reviewed along with the addition of more production. This wouldn't necessarily be "free" income, at least for the capital/replicator job modifications. The maintenance drone jobs should just be bonus as are the factions from regular empires.
 
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Tech Noir Synth

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Weren't Hives supposed to be good at unity production? I'm shocked how much non-Gestalts are ahead on unity output. Why do they even get unity from factions in the first place? They already got more influence from factions than Gestalts got. This doesn't feel right at all.

Also fun fact, one of the recent patches removed the perk which adds Synapse Drone jobs every 20 pops (one of the best and most unique tradition perks), so now Hives have way less Synapse Drones in their empire, this cuts into their unit production aswell.

Either way this goes completely against the design from previous patches. The devs stated that Hives should be good at unity and Machine Empires less so, unless they invest heavily into the special unity job of course. Hopefully we get some changes in the future.
 
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Politicians require Consumer Goods but the Hive/Machine drone equivalents do not. I think you need to add the CG generation into your % of workforce comparisons else you risk overshooting in the opposite direction. (This also gets complicated when you start looking at + complex drone output % policies and edicts, which are on a different scale than + specialist output %.)
 
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SirBlackAxe

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Pop Based Unity Income
Without game engine support for some alternative to faction unity income, mods are stuck with job or building modification to approximate the unity income benefits afforded to Regular empires.
Have you considered modding drone living standards? You could directly add +0.25 unity per drone there, for example. They accept triggered modifiers too if you want to try something like adding per drone unity based on the colony's amenity surplus, or specifically having unemployed drones generate unity.
 
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Pancakelord

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I think slapping a passive base unity production on all gestalt capitals [increasing with tiers] and then adding +%capital unity production per pop might be good enough. Doubled if a Hive or Machine world. It would promote clustering gestalt drones together to do "gestalt stuff".

For civic linked gameplay, there could be more sources too
  • +x unity every time you kill a ship or bomb/eat a pop as a DE or DS
  • +x unity every time you convert a bio pop to a cyborg as a DA
  • Rockbreakers: orbital mineral mining stations all passively generate a little unity.
  • One Mind: each world with an employed governor has increased base unity output, increases with governor level [1x,1.5,2,2.5,3x etc] (see top line about stacking up pops).
  • Empath: +%Unity output for every empire youve stuck an envoy on to improve relations [improving fed cohesion counts as one envoy in all members].
  • Warbots / Strength of Legions: every time you successfully invade a world (for the first time in a war only) you gain x*scaled unity.
 
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My recommendation would be for Hive Maintenance drones to have +3 unity base production while Machine drones have a base of +2 with the ability to take the Maintenance Protocols civic to reach +3 unity

I disagree with this idea. We all know the Maintenance Drone job is awful, but it basically serves as a tax for Gestalt empires like consumer goods for non-Gestalts. You avoid Maintenance Drones at all cost. So don't add unity production to them. At best this is a few extra points of unity once you have a lot of pops on your planets and at worst players who are unfamiliar with Gestalts are going to think Maintenance drones are worth having and they are going to cripple their own empire by using them.

I would much rather have the unity jobs buffed for Hives and Machines. Or like other people suggested each drone produces a small amount of unity. That would work aswell.
 
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Ikael

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This is indeed a real issue. A fellow forum member suggested for hivemind pops to generate 1 unity each, save for deviant drones, which could incur unity penalties. Another poster crunched numbers and concluded that such a scheme would indeed be roughly similar to the unity generation of a regular empire with 100% faction approval. That would be my preferred solution, as it is quite flavorful and on-brand regarding hiveminds.

As for machine empires, I think that another way to solve their unity problems would be to greatly buff their Unity-generating job output (evaluator). This would indeed offer a great contrast between these types of empires, with hiveminds having a "generalistic" kind of unity generation, affected by deviancy and sheer numbers, whereas machine empires will rely on a few (maybe expensive) specialists.
 
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Xenith_Shadow

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One of the big issues seems to be the lack of unity from faction's, which when it used to be influence gain gestalts were given and still have a compensation of getting 1 extra influence a month which is comparable to 50% of the maxium 2 influence that could be gained of 66% of the 75% approval value used above.
This would imply that removing the extra one influence and replacing it with a flat pop based influence gain would be the most optimal solution.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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One of the big issues seems to be the lack of unity from faction's, which when it used to be influence gain gestalts were given and still have a compensation of getting 1 extra influence a month which is comparable to 50% of the maxium 2 influence that could be gained of 66% of the 75% approval value used above.
This would imply that removing the extra one influence and replacing it with a flat pop based influence gain would be the most optimal solution.
This seems like an oversight - the whole point of the additional influence from gestalt was to mitigate the faction bonuses.
 
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GOLANX

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Imo I would take half the politician's unity output and convert it into Edict Fund, this lowers the amount of Unity the individualist empire's are getting while providing roughly the same value, and I think it works better thematically as they are the ones making the edict/laws and executing them, it also has the benefit that edict Fund doesn't become irrelevant during the game.

As for gestalts, I think hives should get some passive unity from pops like others have said. Machines should get higher output from the job and potentially a local non stacking bonus to job output so machines can spread around the evaluators to evaluate the value of worker performance in different locations. Maintainance drones would produce possibly 2 edict Fund, more if you invest in synchronicity. Gestalt Civics should also be more important to where the unity comes from, ala unity from warrior drones with warbots civic.
 
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Maybe merge Synapse Drones and Brain drones? They’re basically the same thing anyway. to Balance the unity and research output could be reduced a bit.
 

GOLANX

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Maybe merge Synapse Drones and Brain drones? They’re basically the same thing anyway. to Balance the unity and research output could be reduced a bit.
Not really, passive research gain doesn't sound very balanced. A measure of how well drones work together isn't the same as the ability to learn new techs. A Synapse is the point at which 2 neurons communicate irl, which is why they were named that for admin cap. The number of synapses isn't the same as the number of neurons, your brain adds and removes those connections independent of the number of neurons.
 

lasator

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Have you considered modding drone living standards? You could directly add +0.25 unity per drone there, for example. They accept triggered modifiers too if you want to try something like adding per drone unity based on the colony's amenity surplus, or specifically having unemployed drones generate unity.
Wow. I completely spaced that gestalt empire pops do actually have living standards even though they are a no-op today. This could be a really elegant way to address the faction income side of the issue. *Applause*. There would need to be some type of scaler or additional types of living standards to allow flexibility like the faction based unity income civics and ethics as a regular empire can have over 1 unity/pop if they choose to build that way.

I disagree with this idea. We all know the Maintenance Drone job is awful, but it basically serves as a tax for Gestalt empires like consumer goods for non-Gestalts.
I do too, even though that's what I recommended. At the time, I didn't know of any other way to approximate the faction based unity income. Based on Black's feedback, I'm going to throw together a living standards mod and play test that instead to see how well it works.

Politicians require Consumer Goods but the Hive/Machine drone equivalents do not. I think you need to add the CG generation into your % of workforce comparisons else you risk overshooting in the opposite direction.
The idea that regular empires use CG so all imbalances are "justified" is a fallacy that keeps propagating around these forums. OK, let's do all the math. The 40 Politician jobs would require 3 CG (i'm even taking the living standards into account) each. This is 120 CG burn rate. At base values this would equal 20 CG jobs and 20 mining jobs.

However, at optimal tech levels and bonuses each artisan outputs closer to 16 CGs at a cost of 10.5 minerals. Miners produce approximately 16 minerals. This works out to 8 artisans and 5 miners. The CGs consumed by the artisans and miners are covered by the excess over 120 being produced. So 13 total jobs and 3 building slots are used which is an additional 2.6% fo the workforce and 2.7% of the available building slots within the empire. This brings the total workforce required to 10.6%. Hive and Machine empires are still paying over 2x workforce cost over a regular empire and a massive number of building slots are consumed.

As I stated before, I'm more than happy to pay extra upkeep for any modified jobs that receive additional unity production. There just needs to be some parity (not necessarily equality) between the ability for each empire type to produce unity now that its importance has been greatly increased. Expending twice (or more) the amount of workers and occupying 3-8 times the number of building slots just to produce the same level of unity income isn't balanced.
 
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I think utopian abundant pops need a unity buff :p considering how the new pop system (and empire size) does not really encourage "abolishing labour" and creating a post-scarcity society where not everyone needs to work, i think either unemployed pops should have their unity increased or even doubled, employed pops should have a fractional production of unity (0.1?), or both.

My roleplay ideally would see the whole society partake in administration, such that I only need to build one admin building per planet with no need for "dedicated admin planets and habs".
 

lasator

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Ok. After hours of beating my head against the wall trying to implement @SirBlackAxe I think I finally have something. It turns out that PDX never implemented the standard modifier set for gestalt pops. Shocker, I know right?! :eek:. This makes it impossible to do it from living standards. However, it is possible to modify the gestalt pop categories directly to add unity income. I've attached a test mod to this post for anyone that wants to help play test the following changes:

Hive Mind:
  • Added 0.375 unity production to all pops. This is roughly equivalent to a regular empire that maintains an average 75% approval rating across all factions without civics, ethics, or technologies that increase faction unity
  • Replaced the standard Synapse jobs provided by their capital buildings with Core Synapse jobs that produce 6 unity with an upkeep of 3 energy and 3 minerals. 50% more unity production for 50% increased upkeep
  • Changed the rate at which Core Synapse jobs are gained. Tier 1 capital building has 1 Core job initially and gains a second at pop >= 10. Tier 2 capital building has 2 Core jobs and gains a third at pop >= 10 and a fourth at pop >= 40
Machine:
  • Added 0.375 unity production to all pops. This is roughly equivalent to a regular empire that maintains an average 75% approval rating across all factions without civics, ethics, or technologies that increase faction unity
  • Added +4 unity production to the Replicator job and increased upkeep by 1 energy. The upkeep needs to be adjusted upwards but this might require modifying the starting deposits to absorb a more reasonable level of upkeep. This production will apply to Replicator jobs from any source.
Overall, initial testing of 50+ years for each empire type has felt really good. Unity production outside building slots is competitive with regular empires although still slightly lower. Hive and ME only lag 1-2 tradition picks behind regular empires at year 50 instead of being 1-2 entire trees behind.

This mod is dirty as I haven't done the localization side of things (even for english) yet. It updates the Replicator job so won't be compatible with any mods that affect jobs since that file is full load instead of partial update. It also changes the hive and habitat capital buildings so won't be compatible with any mods that affect those buildings. It also makes changes to the gestalt pop categories file, but who the hell is messing with that in a mod besides me lol. You'll need to create your own .mod file with the appropriate info.
 

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I'm hoping there are some adjustments to unity income in the upcoming 3.4 release. As it stands today, there are some significant discrepancies in the ability of each empire type to generate unity. Many of these issues have been around for a while but weren't much of an issue with the limited uses of unity. Now that unity is used for so many important systems, the differences probably need to be looked at.

I've written before about the very early game unity challenges for Hive and Machine empires. However, I wanted to shift focus from early game to mid/late game to show how those issues increase over time. Here's an example empire template that illustrates the problems and how they scale into later game:
  • 10 Colonies
  • 50 Pops per Colony for a total of 500 Pops
  • Each colony has top level capital building
In this example, I am only using baseline numbers as most of the bonuses to production are pretty consistent between empire types depending on government and civics combinations. The main point is to highlight the core differences that might be made even worse through various bonuses and builds.

Regular Empire
A regular empire has two base sources of unity income: Politicians from their capital buildings and passive income from factions.
  • 40 Politicians @ 6 unity = 240 unity/month
  • 500 pops in factions @ 75% approval (very easy to maintain) = 187.5 unity/month
For a total of 427.5 unity/month income without specifically devoting resources to unity production. This is 8% of their workforce and requires 0 building slots.

Hive Empire
A hive empire receives base unity from the jobs provided by their capital buildings but don't have any form of passive unity productions.
  • 30 Synapse Drones @ 4 unity = 120 unity/month
If a hive empire were to generate the same amount of unity as the regular empire, they would need to create 77 additional Synapse jobs that would require at least 13 building slots which occupy 13% of the empires available optional slots. This would also be 21.4% of their available workforce.

Machine Empire
A machine empire has no form of base unity production. All non trivial sources of unity require a building slot. They would need to create 107 Coordinator jobs requiring at least 18 buildings. This is 21.4% of their workforce and 18% of their available optional slots.


Hive and Machine empires have to expend 2.675 times the number or workers to produce the same amount of unity per month as do regular empires. This is with base numbers. Regular empires have many more options through government types, ethics, and civics choices that can turn this gap into a chasm. I understand that there needs to be some differences between the empire types so they remain unique in flavor and play experience. However, a nearly 3x scaler advantage in production of an extremely important resource seems outside the realm of flavor.

Not to mention the fact that the two empire types built on the concept of single consciousness and empire wide coordination would be the empires least able to produce a resource called "Unity". In my play throughs of regular empires, they are consistently 2-3 entire tradition trees ahead of my hive and machine empires at the same time scale. This also means that they are able to more easily build megastructures and ascend their planets as the game progresses. The other consequence is that they would be able to dedicate that 13.4% of their workforce and open building slots to pure technology development further exacerbating the imbalance.
I made a mod that reduce production of synapsie drones but makes than produce 1 stability, and increase unity production of a planet by 1%, also reduced number of synapse drones.
Then i made all hive pops produce 1 unity passively, and this made them much more in pair.
Machines got passive production of science, to compensate low unity production.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Regular Empire
A regular empire has two base sources of unity income: Politicians from their capital buildings and passive income from factions.
  • 40 Politicians @ 6 unity = 240 unity/month
  • 500 pops in factions @ 75% approval (very easy to maintain) = 187.5 unity/month
For a total of 427.5 unity/month income without specifically devoting resources to unity production. This is 8% of their workforce and requires 0 building slots.

Hive Empire
A hive empire receives base unity from the jobs provided by their capital buildings but don't have any form of passive unity productions.
  • 30 Synapse Drones @ 4 unity = 120 unity/month
If a hive empire were to generate the same amount of unity as the regular empire, they would need to create 77 additional Synapse jobs that would require at least 13 building slots which occupy 13% of the empires available optional slots. This would also be 21.4% of their available workforce.

There's a couple of issue with your basis of comparison which undermines your overall point. Not only are you not comparing a realistic basis of comparison (a normal empire and a hive empire are not going to have the same number of pops while relying solely on capital jobs for unity- Gestalts are, after all, fundamentally pop-bloomers and their unity job is the exact same as their capital job) but more importantly you're not comparing Unity costs.

While Gestalts have lower unity production on the per-job basis, they also have a very, very significant factor I didn't see mentioned at all- 25% sprawl reduction. Sprawl affects both how much technology production you need, but also how much unity you need to produce for traditions. While a lower unity output is a disadvantage against flat unity costs, most unity costs aren't flat- tradition unity costs are the vast majority of unity expenditures, and they scale exponentially before sprawl is brought in.

This means that gestalts, while initially at a unity disadvantage in the early game where unity costs are flat, have a Very Significant long-term unity advantage, and science advantage, and even an edict-advantage.

And this is before you factor in things like the Gestalt Manufacturing economic policy (20% to all specialist jobs), the early-game pop advantage (more pops to spare), the Synchronicity tradition (makes unity workers provide 2 amenities, greatly affecting the Maintenance drone ratio).



Machine Empire
A machine empire has no form of base unity production. All non trivial sources of unity require a building slot. They would need to create 107 Coordinator jobs requiring at least 18 buildings. This is 21.4% of their workforce and 18% of their available optional slots.

Alternatively, the Machine goes Unyielding- like all good gestalts should- and uses build slots for military bases +3 pop-free unity while working resource district jobs.

Now, there is a different argument to be made about Machine Empires, and that's how before the 3.3 unity rework they were actually the specialists at unity and admin sprawl management. Machine admin sprawl management was much better than normal empire administrators, while Machine unity jobs were actually stronger than normal unity jobs. When the admin went away, Machines inherited higher sprawl costs, without a corresponding unity bump.
 
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lasator

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There's a couple of issue with your basis of comparison which undermines your overall point. Not only are you not comparing a realistic basis of comparison (a normal empire and a hive empire are not going to have the same number of pops while relying solely on capital jobs for unity- Gestalts are, after all, fundamentally pop-bloomers and their unity job is the exact same as their capital job) but more importantly you're not comparing Unity costs.
Ok, I'm game. Let's talk about pop growth. When comparing regular empires to hive and machine empires, there are four types of pop increases that have to be considered: Natural Pop Growth, Pop Assembly, Pop Integration, and Colonization.

Natural Pop Growth
Hive empires have an advantage in natural pop growth based on their innate +25% growth. Machine empires don't naturally have pop growth unless they are Driven Assimilators which then receive -50% growth and lack access to some of the bonuses to growth available to hive and regular empires. The same pop growth bonuses and penalties are available to both regular and hive empires except for one.

Regular empires have access to the Gene Clinics line of buildings which provide 10/20% pop growth along with amenities and more crucially +5/10% habitability. On non 100% habitable worlds the habitability is worth an additional 2.5/5% bonus to pop growth as well as 2.5/5% reduction in production output. This means that the inherent growth bonus of hives is reduced and eventually eliminated through the use of this building (and associated slot).

Pop Assembly
Again, hive empires have an advantage when it comes to pop assembly. By trading a building slot and some upkeep hives are immediately able to have 2 points of pop assembly. Regular empires can begin to assemble robot workers very early on at the same 2 points/month rate. It is likely that the hive empire has only produced an extra 2-5 pops before a regular empire closes this gap depending on the regular empire's luck in the engineering technology draw. Robotic works also (with the proper technology) can be used to colonize otherwise uninhabitable planets.

Machine empires are obviously the clear winners in this category. Even though their replicator jobs only provide 1 point of pop assembly, they get 2 or more from their capital building and an additional 1-3 jobs from buildings. They also have very powerful civics and traits that increase assembly rates even further. These bonuses however even out with hive and regular empires when adding organic pop growth and assembly points.

This section wouldn't be complete without mentioning the bio ascension set of perks. Clone vats replace the robotic assembly points of regular empires with 3 points of bio assembly. This is also affected by the Gene Clinics line of buildings for a maximum of 3.6 points of assembly. Hive empires that take the bio ascension perk end up with 5 points of assembly and begin producing more pops than regular empires again. Hive empires also gain an additional 2 points of assembly once they have access to Hive world terraforming for a maximum of 7 points of assembly. These bonuses are available much later in the game.

Pop Integration
Pop integration is the act of incorporating external pops into an empire. The primary ways of accomplishing this is through conquering other empires and primitive worlds or through the use fo the Nihilistic Acquisition ascension perk. This is something only available to regular empires by default. Hive empires gain this ability if they complete the bio ascension path which would be much later in the game. Machine empires can only take advantage of this if the target empire is also machine, has robotic workers, or they are Driven Assimilators.

The power of pop integration as it relates to population growth can't be understated. A regular empire with early access to a primitive world can obtain decades worth of natural and/or assembly pop growth instantly. Not to mention, if the the integrated species has a different biome preference they can begin to leverage other worlds for efficient exploitation. This isn't something available to hive empires unless they go through the process of terraforming poor habitability planets or eventually complete bio ascension. Driven assimilator machine empires can also use this technique to great advantage to supplement their otherwise lower organic pop growth.

Colonization
Although not very consequential in the grand scheme of overall population growth mechanics, I wanted to note it to be thorough. Machine empires get a slight advantage here as they get an extra pop each time they colonize a new world in comparison to regular and hive empires.

Overall, hive empires might have a slight advantage in general pop growth from natural and assembly sources but this advantage is easily overshadowed by the sheer power of pop integration. A regular empire can grow by leaps and bounds through conquest. It's not even a competition with the clear winner being the regular empire.

While Gestalts have lower unity production on the per-job basis, they also have a very, very significant factor I didn't see mentioned at all- 25% sprawl reduction. Sprawl affects both how much technology production you need, but also how much unity you need to produce for traditions. While a lower unity output is a disadvantage against flat unity costs, most unity costs aren't flat- tradition unity costs are the vast majority of unity expenditures, and they scale exponentially before sprawl is brought in.
Empire Size and its associated penalties are an interesting aspect to the discussion. Yes, it is true that pound for pound the effective penalty paid by hive empires is less than both machine and regular empires when ES is the same. However, ES isn't generated in a vacuum. Hive empires have the unique ability to zero out ES contribution from colonies. Compared to regular empires this equates to 2.5 ES per colony difference.

Hive empires also have a single civic that reduces ES from pops by 20% allowing hive empires to max out at -50% ES from pops pre-scaler bonuses. Scaler bonuses are the class of multiplicative bonuses such as the one provided by the Docile species trait and the ES reduction from planetary ascension. These are applied after the standard reductions/increases. For a hive empire to accomplish both of these feats, they have to expand both initial civic slots.

In comparison, a regular empire actually maxes out at -85% ES from pops pre-scaler. As the game progresses, the population contribution to ES quickly becomes the limiting factor for all empires. I'll admit that the -85% number is a very specialized build that requires all three ethics slots, a civic slot, and being a democracy as opposed to other choices.

Let's look at a more traditional build that takes Egalitarian and Beacon of Liberty. This build provides the following benefits:
  • +15% empire unity production
  • +5% specialist output
  • -15% ES from pops (-55% max pre-scaler)
  • +25% unity from factions
If we compare the two builds using the earlier example empire template we get an ES of 250 for the regular empire and 250 for the hive empire as well. An ES of 250 equates to a 15% penalty to tech and a 30% penalty to traditions for the regular empire and 11.25%/22.5% respectively for the hive empire. The hive empire is paying 7.5% less for traditions, but the regular empire is producing 23% more unity per month overall with my changes in place and the same resources were dedicated to unity production. The regular empire easily wins again even when taking ES into account. The regular empire still has 2 ethics slots to use and one civic slot to customize their empire where as the hive empire is locked into this specific template while still being inferior.

Those ethics slots can be used to widen the gap even further by either going spiritualist for more unity production bonuses or pacifist for additional ES from pop reduction. The civic slot could also be used for another 40% unity from factions or another 10% specialist output. The point is that a regular empire is still superior to hive while also maintaining flexibility in build which the hive does not have.

I haven't addressed machine empires yet because even with unity income parity, they still aren't in a great place when it comes to ES. The machine intelligence effects on ES aren't a great tradeoff. Assuming the Expansion tree is taken as well as the ES per colony reduction ascension perk is taken, it still requires a planet to have at least 34 pops on it before the break even point. In the early and mid game when an empire is expanding, most colonies will not meet this condition causing the machine empire to pay costly penalties.

A machine empire following that template ends up with an ES of 250 also though the template is favorable to them. They pay full price at the penalty box but don't have access to a +unity species trait like regular and hive species and have to pick 2 out of three of +15% unity, +15% pop assembly speed, or -20% ES from pops. The last two are basically the current go-to build for machine empires unless Rogue Servitor or Driven Assimilator where you give up one of the two. There's no redeeming offset for machine empires like there is for regular empires.
This means that gestalts, while initially at a unity disadvantage in the early game where unity costs are flat, have a Very Significant long-term unity advantage, and science advantage, and even an edict-advantage.
Based on the above, the long-term unity advantage actually goes to the regular empire, and that's assuming you have all of my changes in place. Without them as I said before it's not even a contest.

And this is before you factor in things like the Gestalt Manufacturing economic policy (20% to all specialist jobs), the early-game pop advantage (more pops to spare), the Synchronicity tradition (makes unity workers provide 2 amenities, greatly affecting the Maintenance drone ratio).
The economic policy can be boon for sure once you have a matter decompressor and dyson sphere online. Before that, hives and machines suffer from basic materials shortages all the time. This is primarily caused by their jobs directly converting basic materials into specialist production. You lose the opportunity to double dip certain production bonuses.

For instance the regular empire above with 20% specialist bonus would apply to converting minerals into consumer goods and again when converting consumer goods into unity. If you also take planetary specialization into account, you can also gain reductions to job upkeep costs so that less minerals are needed for the consumer goods and less consumer goods are need for the unity. This is also why the idea that hive and machine empires are "more efficient" than regular empires is a fallacy. Regular empires can achieve a massively more efficient economy than either hive or machine empires.
Alternatively, the Machine goes Unyielding- like all good gestalts should- and uses build slots for military bases +3 pop-free unity while working resource district jobs.
There's no reason a regular or hive empire wouldn't take this tradition tree so would also have access to this method of unity production.
 
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