Units- why attach art,at,aa,eng?

[seattle]

My question is:

What's the advantage of attaching brigades to your regular units?

Before I joined this forum, I built artillery, anti-tank, anti-air and engineer brigades only some times for fun.
After reading a lot from the experts, I decided to attach them.
Now I build 5 - 8 regular infantry or armoured units and attach one of each brigades.

I still don't know what the advantage shall be.

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Regular infantry costs 10 mp.
The specialized brigades about 12 mp.

Also some more ICs and much more time to build.

Engineers have a higher defense value and better speed (one brigade in a 12 unit stack won't affect the speed of the stack much, will it?).
Artillery higher soft attack value and so on.

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The advantage of better values is annulled by the higher mp cost.

If I only build vanilla infantry and tanks I have a lot more units in total.
More units allow more strategic options.

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As mentioned above, I don't have much experience with the specialized brigades. So I will try to figure it out myself in my next games.

In the meantime maybe you can persuade me, why I shouldn't just build vanilla units.

 

[mesut]

Hi,

I think one reason might be, that attached brigades allow a concentration of firepower, without having overstacking penalties. Maybe you should compare the maximum attack/defense values for vanilla and brigade-attached units (depending on technology level) to decide if its worth or not. Also, you have to consider that vanilla units don't get the benefits of certain technologies.

Personally, I prefer to operate with specialized hard-hitting armies, rather than a big stack of regulars.

Regards
Mesut

 

[Kochtopfhelm]

For countries as USSR with lot of MP build vanilla inf in huge numbers, they are produced fast and cheap on ICs.But as Germany u have to watch your MP more than your IC. For 20 % more MP u got huge soft attack plus for arty, great antitank (and antimech!) with the AT and with AA u dont have to use lots of MP to reinforce u troops bombed around the clock by those IL2s. With the improved defense value of the engs u receive less casualies in battles saving u supplies and even more important MP! Dont forget the improved speed (at least in CORE not sure about vanilla) making encirclements much easier and the river attack ability! So as Germany i attach every division i build, cause its saves me the MP i will need when i fight the bear.

PS: dont forget: less units with the same abilities to attack and defend (with engs even faster ones!) need less leaders, so you dont have to use those low skill ones.


edited by gzav - Please read the Double posts sticky.

 

[unmerged(27034)]

I think mesut and Kochtopfhelm have summed up everything well already.

 

[unmerged(15561)]

Having brigaded units means extra stats which can be grown by research. Check you will be spending the necessary ICs in research for those brigade types before building. For instance as Germany I will have all brigade types for all types of units, ARM, MEC, MOT, INF, MARs so I will research most of those associated TECHs!

 

[oxymoron]

In vanilla 1.06 I attach Eng to Mec Inf, because those are the fastest land units and I like the mobility.

My Marines get Art attached, because I like the added firepower during amphibous landings, where I cannot surround the enemy.

The Mountan Inf gets Eng attached, because it doesn't slow them down (like the other brigades) and the better defense value doesn't hurt.

Inf is usually build as plain vanilla Inf. I build them only, if I need cost effective (regarding IC) troops and adding a brigade would lessen that advantage.

I don't build AA brigades, because I prefer to build enough fighters. AT brigades don't get build, because I prefer to outmaneuver large armoured forces instead of taking them head on.

oxymoron

 

[unmerged(3221)]

You also have to look at the time element. You can raise non brigade inf div both faster and cheaper than you can brigaded inf. Cost for any unit is the daily cost times the number of days needed: don't just look at the daily IC.

You can for the same amount of IC build three inf div versus one inf div with an arty brigade. Even when you play a manpower stretched country like Germany, you still need to have inf around to defend the 30+ beaches in Europe or to hold territory in Russia that your Pz take. If you build lots of inf-arty you will have fewer of them at any given moment.

Other questions relate to playing style and difficulty levels. Do you try to use the kind of army that 'your country' used or do you just come up with a order of battle for your army that suits your taste? What difficulty level do you play on? On very hard it's much more difficult to build lots of inf-arty and still have enough inf div.

In standard HOI as opposed to CORE, the only brigades worth building for inf are arty bde. Arty will also increase the hard attack as well as the soft attack. Use eng bde for your mobile div (motor/mech) for the higher speed and better river crossing. For pz div it's a toss up between better river crossing with eng bde versus better firepower with an arty div. I personally bde all mobile div.

There is little extra usable defense for eng bde. Most div end up with a ground defense of 24 and an eng bde increases that to 32. But most enemy div that you fight are unlikely to have attack values higher than 24 unless they are very advanced tanks or have an arty bde. So the extra defense that is supposed to be provided by the eng bde goes unused in a lot of battles while the extra firepower of an arty bde is always used. Attack is better than defense in HOI.

I personally build only plain inf when I play Germany on very hard until I have enough inf to defend beaches and have the 120+ inf div for Barbarossa that Germany historically had. I put eng bde on motor inf to give them more speed and for river crossing. I build pz div with eng bde for my early pz div so that they cross rivers better. Later on I switch the pz div to arty bde so I end up with a mix of pz-eng and pz-arty.

I combine this strategy with a minimal investment in arty research early in the game. I stop arty research after getting to the self propelled arty level where you get the 70mm AT and tank guns. Plain inf have all the arty benefits at that level expect for the 150 gun. I finish the inf levels including semi modern before July 1940 when I play Germany. That gives me elite inf without bde. I build my early Pz with eng bde because I do not have to do much research for eng bde. Later on I resume researching arty and start to build some inf-arty and then some pz-arty to take advantage of that additional research.

 

[unmerged(25859)]

If you include 1 engineer brigade in a stack with lets say 4 vanilla infantry, will the whole stack enjoy the bonus?--or does the whole stack have to be of the same type--arty, aa, at, engineer --to enjoy the bonus??

 

[unmerged(27034)]

Edit: Never mind the comments made Oxymoron's post, I was wrong.

If you include 1 engineer brigade in a stack with lets say 4 vanilla infantry, will the whole stack enjoy the bonus?

No. Only units with E-Brigades will have reduced penalties for river crossing.

--or does the whole stack have to be of the same type--arty, aa, at, engineer --to enjoy the bonus??

Only the division with the brigade gets the advantages from the brigade, no one else.

 

[Micah Goodman 2]

Playing as the U.S. in the Pacific theater I attach Arty Bde’s to my Marine divisions and Engineer Bde’s to my Army infantry divisions. I use the Marines to attack and take the island, then I rotate the Army Division in to hold it while I prepare my Marine division for the next assault.

 

[seattle]

On 1.06 I always play "normal/normal". That's difficult enough for me.

I'm still curious how a mp poor country like Germany could benefit from attached brigades.
As someone mentioned above, you will need a lot of infantry to secure each beach province from France to the Balkans.

20 percent more mp cost for attached brigades is a lot. Not to mention the IC cost.

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Especially for infantry:
I only use them for defence. Greater speed doesn't help me at all.

I can understand why brigades are good for mechs and tanks. Then again, one engineer brigade in a 12 unit stack? That doesn't gain much speed advantage or river crossing bonus.

AA brigades:
I also go for the fighters. Thus I don't need AA brigades.

AT brigades:
The a.i. is building so few mechs and tanks. 90 percent is infantry. So why should I have AT-brigades?

 

[unmerged(27034)]

I'm still curious how a mp poor country like Germany could benefit from attached brigades.

20 percent more mp cost for attached brigades is a lot. Not to mention the IC cost.

The improvement in firepower is greater than 20 %. So you got more firepower for your manpower. 5 artillerybrigaded infanterydivisions > 6 regular divisions. And they cost the same in manpower.

With the improved performance of Brigaded divisons, you need less of them, to do the same job. For instance, 2 artillery brigaded divisions could guard the beaches, instead of 3 vanilla units ( Or you could use the same amount of divisions, and take less losses due to the improved performance )

 

[mesut]

Hi,

one should never build only vanilla or brigaded divisions. To secure low priority positions vanilla divisions are absolute OK, the brigaded one's are for the main theatre where you will need concentrated firepower. Brigaded divisions give you the ability to achieve a fast breakthrough with less casualties, and that saves MP!

Regards
Mesut

 

[unmerged(8319)]

It's still a trade-off though. If you don't have enough units in the short run, the long run thing becomes irrelevant!

Btw.: how much mp does everyone have in reserve by the time they launch Barbarossa (or rather: how much mp reserve AND how many division do you engage in Barbarossa?)

 

[rado907]

they become much tougher
no question about it
but I have the feeling too many brigades cost cosmic amounts of oil... so don't overuse them I guess...

btw tanks with arty become mightily powerful, and infs with engineers become superb defenders...

 

[Kochtopfhelm]

On 1.06 I always play "normal/normal". That's difficult enough for me.

I'm still curious how a mp poor country like Germany could benefit from attached brigades.
As someone mentioned above, you will need a lot of infantry to secure each beach province from France to the Balkans.

20 percent more mp cost for attached brigades is a lot. Not to mention the IC cost.

------------------

Especially for infantry:
I only use them for defence. Greater speed doesn't help me at all.

I can understand why brigades are good for mechs and tanks. Then again, one engineer brigade in a 12 unit stack? That doesn't gain much speed advantage or river crossing bonus.

AA brigades:
I also go for the fighters. Thus I don't need AA brigades.

AT brigades:
The a.i. is building so few mechs and tanks. 90 percent is infantry. So why should I have AT-brigades?

I use eng brigades for infantry (12 engs in a 12 stack are hard to knock out!). 3 Eng infs defend my beaches much better than 4 or 5 vanilla infs + they will revieve less casualties. The same at the eastern border. A huge part of my MP as Germany is needed to reinforce those troops holding captured provinces while my panzerforces attack. with engs i need less MP to keep defense up. so theres more MP to spend on new units.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Antoehr consideration is your strategy. For example as GER:

If you plan to go it alone, then some plain INF would figure into your build strategy more than if you plan to bring ITA, HUN, and BUL into your alliance. With allies, you can then relegate territory holding positions to them, freeing your MP up for frontline units, which would tend to be armored and brigaded units.

When you play MP, it is even more so as your alliances are typically formed quite early in the game. It gets to be a lively game with 8 or 9 players ... then each major along with minors is represented by a human player. Production and research then tend to get highly focused.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Btw.: how much mp does everyone have in reserve by the time they launch Barbarossa (or rather: how much mp reserve AND how many division do you engage in Barbarossa?)

I had about what Germany had historically for Barbarossa: 34 mobile pz and motor inf div plus about 116 inf div. On very hard in this game I had on the Eastern front:
: 21 Pz and 15 Motor-eng
: 6 mountain and 3 para
: 18 basic tac ending up as 24
rest plain inf except for the inf-bde that I start with.
I was allied with and controlling Rumania and Hungary whose inf were almost at my level. About 20-25 div from each fighting or holding territory.

Manpower on 29 May 41 was 478. The build queue had about 6 pz-arty, 3 motor-eng, 3 mountain, and 24 plain inf. Tank div on the field in the East were three IL20, six AL30, and three BM40 with eng bde. Every pz div after that was IM50-arty.

I deliberately used only approximately what the Germans had and use a range of models. Their best tank was the Pz 3j and that is what I used for my best tank. They used motor inf not mech inf. My plain inf were at almost maximum stats with 15 SA with 24 GD in April 1940 with 93 org (got counter arty doctrine thru a miracle breakthru event).

I captured Leningrad with two 12 inf stacks and have cut off Baku and got a 50 div pocket in the Pripet Marshes so I actually have more div than the SU when I last looked. It's November now and I am going to defend in winter as I don't want to take winter storm casualties.

Still using admin genius and started man of the people in 1937. Manpower is too low now for large inf builds but I have more than enough div for a spring 1942 offense as my last big builds are SR into defensive winter positions.

In the west the USA entered the war in Oct 1941. I accepted Vichy France and have 7 plain inf holding southern France with 6 plain inf in Northern Africa. The allied AI has so far focused almost entirely on Italy but has yet to do any significant damage except for one isolated beachhead in Benghazi.

So I am roughly using what the Germans historically used and am doing slightly better in Russia by taking Leningrad and cutting off the Baku region. If Turkey had not allowed the SU military access I probably could have taken that region before winter set in. Now I have to defend during the winter and wait until May to go after it.