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Aussiehawker

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Units types and their pips have been basically the same for a long time, and present almost no strategy. Most tech levels have few choices if any at all, and most of these choices have one that is simply better than the others, no matter how you play. Not to mention that some of the choices are ridiculous. Anybody in Western Europe can recruit Scottish/Irish Celtic warriors, Longbows aren't available at the start, despite having the heyday before game start, and some units are clearly melee, and others are ranged, It is all over the place etc.

The tech groups also mean that you have no control of your units pips. Sometimes in the game, you will just have your troops melt, even against troops with equal quality simply because of tech groups.

Unit types also don't really represent the various ways that armies were organised in terms of troops, and which were the decisive elements of the army.


I propose that instead of picking a unit type at various tech intervals, nations instead have military doctrines.

The military doctrines available, depend on the tech groups, but nations can also make an effort to adopt different doctrines.

These military doctrines grant different bonuses or negatives to unit types, terrain, movement speed, unit cost, etc.

Some nations could also have unique military doctrines.


So for example, France and some other Western Europe nations would have a heavy cavalry focused doctrines, allowing access to heavy cavalry. This would be a primary shock doctrine but their prime effectiveness would be on open territory and have a greater cost, and require specific government types, like feudal monarchies. They would be dominate vs other cavalry in head to head battles and need to be countered by quality infantry.

While for example Spain and Castille, would have a primarily infantry focused doctrine, like with the Terico, with somewhat lighter cavalry, like the Jinete. The Terico spread around Europe, but primarily was adopted by Spain, Germany and Italy.

Bohemia and Hungary instead would have access to at the start Wagonfort tactics. But these tactics also spread to the Ottomans, who called it tabur cengi, and used it to great effect to smash the Safavid Persians at Chaldiran. Who in turn used it later against the Uzbeks.

Poland and Eastern European nations would be more cavalry focused, but split between light cavalry and heavier cavalry.

Steppe Nations would be primarily cavalry focused, with superb light cavalry archers, as well as armoured lancers. Maybe even some restrictions on building infantry in steppe culture lands, and instead only being able to get them from tributaries or conquered, non-tatar peoples.

Etc.

The doctrines would have various counterplay. So, for example, the Terico is adapt at facing heavy cavalry, as it had the mass of pikes to fend off cavalry charges. But against light cavalry, their lack of firepower is a weakness. While armies with more focus on firepower, than pikes would be more vulnerable to cavalry charges.

Doctrines would also as mentioned depend on the terrain. So trying to use heavy cavalry in the rough balkans, would be less effective than using them in the farmlands of France.

Then throughout the game, the military doctrines will evolve, with innovations and new tactics.
 
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Jarvin

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Units types and their pips have been basically the same for a long time, and present almost no strategy. Most tech levels have few choices if any at all, and most of these choices have one that is simply better than the others, no matter how you play. Not to mention that some of the choices are ridiculous. Anybody in Western Europe can recruit Scottish/Irish Celtic warriors, Longbows aren't available at the start, despite having the heyday before game start, and some units are clearly melee, and others are ranged, It is all over the place etc.
This entire game revolves around making choices, and it's rarely choices between two equal options. There is always an "obvious" optimal choice, yet it's rarely a case that literally everyone understands what that choice is. Similarly here - you are right that typically there is a single 'optimal' unit type choice but I know very few people actually capable of pointing these out. I'd point out to the old Zwirbaum's guide on "optimal unit choices" which is just straight up wrong in several places, yet people tend to blindly follow it to this day.



The tech groups also mean that you have no control of your units pips. Sometimes in the game, you will just have your troops melt, even against troops with equal quality simply because of tech groups.
That's correct only on a very few select techs & matchups. Overall the differences between tech groups are actually minor and typically severely overestimated.


I propose that instead of picking a unit type at various tech intervals, nations instead have military doctrines.
The military doctrines available, depend on the tech groups, but nations can also make an effort to adopt different doctrines.
These military doctrines grant different bonuses or negatives to unit types, terrain, movement speed, unit cost, etc.
Some nations could also have unique military doctrines.

So for example, France and some other Western Europe nations would have a heavy cavalry focused doctrines, allowing access to heavy cavalry. This would be a primary shock doctrine but their prime effectiveness would be on open territory and have a greater cost, and require specific government types, like feudal monarchies. They would be dominate vs other cavalry in head to head battles and need to be countered by quality infantry.

While for example Spain and Castille, would have a primarily infantry focused doctrine, like with the Terico, with somewhat lighter cavalry, like the Jinete. The Terico spread around Europe, but primarily was adopted by Spain, Germany and Italy.

Bohemia and Hungary instead would have access to at the start Wagonfort tactics. But these tactics also spread to the Ottomans, who called it tabur cengi, and used it to great effect to smash the Safavid Persians at Chaldiran. Who in turn used it later against the Uzbeks.

Poland and Eastern European nations would be more cavalry focused, but split between light cavalry and heavier cavalry.

Steppe Nations would be primarily cavalry focused, with superb light cavalry archers, as well as armoured lancers. Maybe even some restrictions on building infantry in steppe culture lands, and instead only being able to get them from tributaries or conquered, non-tatar peoples.
While interesting this largely feels like just another mechanic on top of all the bonuses you can get currently from ideas/events/age abilities/government reforms/policies. What's new and skillful about it?


Also note that while the idea of having new units like heavy cavalry and light cavalry instead of just 'cavalry' as we have now(which is what you are asking for as I understand it) is cool it's going to be extremely difficult to make it work with the current way combat in this game works.

Etc.

The doctrines would have various counterplay. So, for example, the Terico is adapt at facing heavy cavalry, as it had the mass of pikes to fend off cavalry charges. But against light cavalry, their lack of firepower is a weakness. While armies with more focus on firepower, than pikes would be more vulnerable to cavalry charges.

Doctrines would also as mentioned depend on the terrain. So trying to use heavy cavalry in the rough balkans, would be less effective than using them in the farmlands of France.

Then throughout the game, the military doctrines will evolve, with innovations and new tactics.

You seem to be interested in bringing AoE2/SC2 style rock/paper/scissors mechanic of plays and counterplays and - again - I'm not really sure if this works in EU4.


I totally agree with you that warfare could use some reworks to make it more skillful but I just don't think if that's the right way to go about it
 
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Kimbole

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Guilty admission, I often pick the unit upgrades pretty much randomly and have no real idea which ones are best or how to determine that. And I’ve played a lot. Doesn’t seem to hurt me...
 
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bestbrian

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No changes are going to happen to this system until EU5, but I always thought it would be sweet if, instead of getting pre-formed units, you received a pool of pips and could create your own (with a cap on the number of pips that can be assigned to each category),perhaps with research in mil tech/cultural bonuses allowing increases/reductions to the category cap.
 
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Me_

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I remember bringing up this issue. Years ago. Nothing changed since then.

It is an unpopular opinion, but I think that at the moment the choice should simply be removed. It's a noob trap - there is always the objectively better one to choose or the choice is irrelevant.

In the long run, a better system might be implemented, but at the moment unique armies (janissaries, cossacs etc.) make for a better idea to pursue.
 
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klingonadmiral

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Guilty admission, I often pick the unit upgrades pretty much randomly and have no real idea which ones are best or how to determine that. And I’ve played a lot. Doesn’t seem to hurt me...

Defensive pips > offensive pips, Morale > Fire > Shock (for infantry past the earlygame)
 
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Sete

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Just to add that Tercos had firepower.
Literally a third of the Terco company had firearms.

"Within the tercio, ranks of pikemen arrayed themselves together into a hollow pike square (cuadro) with swordsmen – typically equipped with a short sword, a buckler, and javelins – inside; as the firearm rose in prominence, the swordsmen declined and were phased out. The arquebusiers (later, musketeers) were usually split up in several mobile groups called "sleeves" (mangas) and typically deployed with one manga at each corner of the cuadro.[citation needed] By virtue of this combined-arms approach, the formation simultaneously enjoyed the staying power of its pike-armed infantry, the ranged firepower of its arquebusiers, as well as the ability to conduct assaults with sword-and-buckler men. In addition to its inherent ability to repulse cavalry and other units along its front, the long-range firepower of its arquebusiers could also be easily shifted to the flanks, making it versatile in both offensive and defensive evolutions, as demonstrated by the success of the tercios at the Battle of Pavia in 1525."
 

Heaven Canceler

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Guilty admission, I often pick the unit upgrades pretty much randomly and have no real idea which ones are best or how to determine that. And I’ve played a lot. Doesn’t seem to hurt me...

Same. I honestly only have so much energy to micro shit and also checking the stats on what is most useful every time I upgrade the tech level is just one random thing too much.
 
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Ruian

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The difference between unit types in practice is almost zilch. You shouldn't worry about min-maxing which unit type you pick. Rebels always spawn with your unit type. Try selecting an entry level infantry unit, let rebels spawn, change your unit type to the superior one and see the difference. It's not much. Note that rebels suck at fighting already, so you need to account for that.