Units can't gain veterancy?

[darkfireslide]

When I saw that there was a veterancy mechanic in this game, I assumed units could gain it over time. Clearly this is not the case, since I had a Pak 38 knock out 4 vehicles, 3 light tanks, and an AVRE in one match. I'm not sure what the reasoning behind this is; previous Wargame titles had units gain veterancy for killing other units, and that mechanic is pretty universal across RTS of all kinds. Why have veterancy as a mechanic if units can't gain it over the course of the match? Like, there's great potential for emergent gameplay just missing if units don't get more experienced over time. Am I missing something?

As a side note, why do 12th SS Panzergrenadiers get panzerfausts, but the 17th Panzergrenadiers don't? Is it because Stosstrupp?

 

[TheUrkkiMan]

As a side note, why do 12th SS Panzergrenadiers get panzerfausts, but the 17th Panzergrenadiers don't? Is it because Stosstrupp?

"Another shortage was to be found with squad anti-tank weapons, namely the ubiquitous Panzerfaust: although lavishly distributed to other divisions, 17. SS didn’t have any on D-Day, and only acquired some during the campaign."

Taken from here:
http://www.eugensystems.com/steel-d...-17-ss-panzergrenadier-gotz-von-berlichingen/

 

[darkfireslide]

Oh. Well that's fine, then. I was just curious.

 

[dmdelor]

YMMV, obviously, but personally, I'm glad it's gone; I don't think it adds much to the game, and it's kind of out-of-scope for the single-skirmish scope of the game. Especially as implemented in WG, where cheap units like a militia could just instantly make the jump from green recruits to elite in a single kill if they got a high value target, it was just goofy.

It's also a win-more mechanic that makes comebacks harder by strengthening the player who is already losing fewer units and killing more enemies. The Buerte Firefly, for example, already dominates the vehicle war in the early game as it is designed to. Does a player who has managed to keep it alive and rack up some kills with it also need a free promotion or two as an added bonus on top of the force superiority they've gotten from using it?

Given how huge an edge veteranacy grants you in Steel Divisions, it's for the best it's not in the game.

 

[Spielführer]

They stated that the units do not gain veterancy. I liked the mechanic in Wargame. I don't know why e.g. your PAK38 should not have gained veterancy when it works out that well...

 

[darkfireslide]

YMMV, obviously, but personally, I'm glad it's gone; I don't think it adds much to the game, and it's kind of out-of-scope for the single-skirmish scope of the game. Especially as implemented in WG, where cheap units like a militia could just instantly make the jump from green recruits to elite in a single kill if they got a high value target, it was just goofy.

It's also a win-more mechanic that makes comebacks harder by strengthening the player who is already losing fewer units and killing more enemies. The Buerte Firefly, for example, already dominates the vehicle war in the early game as it is designed to. Does a player who has managed to keep it alive and rack up some kills with it also need a free promotion or two as an added bonus on top of the force superiority they've gotten from using it?

Given how huge an edge veteranacy grants you in Steel Divisions, it's for the best it's not in the game.

If veterancy were toned down, would the argument change? Shouldn't a unit that does as well as my Pak get at least like a star?

 

[axnone]

If veterancy were toned down, would the argument change? Shouldn't a unit that does as well as my Pak get at least like a star?

No you dont instantly reload faster/shoot more precisely just because you destroyed some enemy vehicles, whether it's a cheap halftracks or costly beute firefly.

Veterans take ages to form. Battle experience aren't accumulated during a single 40 minute skirmish.

 

[darkfireslide]

So, what, decks that don't get veterancy are just.. screwed? I'm not sure I really agree with that design philosophy. Especially since veterancy does /so/ much right now.

 

[Tank Girl]

As always, a radical decision with no space for an "in between" solution. Sad

I partially understand it, but since I am personally very attached to my units and try to keep them alive its just another downside along the "Fall back towards the enemy" feature...

At the same time, veterancy seems to have little to no effect on the morale?! Even 3 star units seem to fall back as fast as other units and need the same time to recover.

 

[Radioshow]

Veterancy is causing some cancer atm. 2 star non command tanks,with high accuracy too, for example are 1 shot monsters when paired with a command unit for 3 stars effective. Only command should be given more than 1 star possibly. A 2 star Stuart command is not too bad as its already very low accuracy and limited use past A and cannot be vetted any further.
A high accuracy 2 star tank like the Stug has the accuracy and AP to be a beast the entire game and the added star from a command makes it 1 shot anything that would face it.

 

[darkfireslide]

I readily admit that the veterancy bonuses in the game are a problem at the moment, but that being said, I always liked those little soldiers that could, I guess, or those epic last stands that a unit somehow survives. I still love this game. I'm just sad that veterancy is implemented the way it is.

 

[Grosnours]

Veterancy brings an edge. A very very big edge when it's two stars, a moderate one with one star.
It makes for a nice additional balancing tool and as such I don't see any problem with it right now. On top of that you have the system of leaders, which rewards an investment and some micro with a nice bonus.
Being able to vet ingame would just cheapen the whole system, if not outright work against it. Why bring a leader when I can upgrade by myself ? Why pay more and get less vetted units when I can buy green horns and vet them through combat ?

Issues arises when veterancy is distributed like candy, as it happens in some decks. Those decks are the issue, not the veterancy system and they make a very good warning not to distribute veterancy in an automatic fashion.
In general, veterancy should be used very conservatively, much more than it is currently.

 

[Village Idiot]

Veterancy is causing some cancer atm. 2 star non command tanks,with high accuracy too, for example are 1 shot monsters when paired with a command unit for 3 stars effective. Only command should be given more than 1 star possibly. A 2 star Stuart command is not too bad as its already very low accuracy and limited use past A and cannot be vetted any further.
A high accuracy 2 star tank like the Stug has the accuracy and AP to be a beast the entire game and the added star from a command makes it 1 shot anything that would face it.

Stug is 5 accuracy with 1000m range so even with two stars its not that fearsome, lots of things kill those. Now, those Panther Gs are a different thing but when playing against 12th.ss you need to choose a division that can take them.
Scotts have those amazing 17 pounders with 2 vet + third possible from commander. Those things kill everything and they can move through hedges so you can always find a good firing spot.

There are always going to be some units that are hard for some divisions to handle. Imo. its fun to see real asymmetry in a game. Its interesting to see if it lasts.

 

[potski]

And it's meant to simulate the very real problems that the Allies had in stopping German heavy tanks with veteran commanders. Not people who had just joined units in Normandy, and got a few kills, but those who already had a few years experience on the Eastern Front. It's one of the reasons that Churchill pulled 7th Armoured (Desert Rats) out of Italy and had them landed on the beaches on the afternoon of D-Day, rather than less experienced Divisions.

 

[Kai Lae]

To the OP: during a match doesn't make sense. Perhaps, though, in the campaign, from one mission to another? As long as it's not overdone.

 

[Vyllis]

You can already have experienced units into your deck, they are not so numerous, take a lot of deck space but good. No need to have experience gain àlà WG RD.

I like my ace StuG destroying your hordes of inexperienced tanks and half tracks you throw/spam at me. I have sacrificed an entire slot for this very unit to stop the hordes of cheap cans people like to buy en masse. Do your job little StuG, destroy the trash !

 

[potski]

To the OP: during a match doesn't make sense. Perhaps, though, in the campaign, from one mission to another? As long as it's not overdone.

In the previous games you never started IIRC with a whole deck to choose from. So there could be an infantry regiment with not much veterancy, and very limited support, attacking on Day1 at Sword, then linking up with the veteran airborne units at Pegasus, before being reinforced by more support companies and more infantry. As long as you didn't throw away the veterans in banzai attacks, then they continued with you to the next map. And you can choose to take them out of the line and bring them back to full strength, for a day or two.

Then you should start getting choices to reinforce the beachhead with whole brigades, with different veterancy/equipment etc. from a variety of the decks. Including Free French or Polish, so you have to play with a wide variety of units.