United States of America Events and Leaders

[unmerged(1196)]

errr... they are Protestant/anglo-saxon already...

I wouldn't say that the Alaghenny territory, in EU 2 terms, would've been mostly populated by 5 Civilized Tribes at the time.

and it was a popular notion long before 1830... It won't make much of a difference in the game, except confuse the hell out of the AI or human by having WAAAAAY too many events clustered around 1835.

That doesn't mean that in 1821, the US could say California was a national territory. That's absurd. It would've been a painful rationalization for war at the time.

Like I wrote earlier, I think the event should be triggered by Polk's election, since his political astuteness (specifically, in provoking a Mexican attack, so he could have his propaganda victory) that allowed for relatively little domestic disturbance.

 

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1820, everything to the mississippi was pretty heavily colonized, or at least stable... exception = florida.

Well, the U.S. isn't claiming they OWN california in 1821.. just that they have a right to it... ie, CB shields... besides, what practical reason is there for waiting?

your a huge Polk fan... I am getting that...

 

[unmerged(1196)]

your a huge Polk fan... I am getting that...

Nah, not a fan. I do think that he was a good politician. Of course that's the furthest thing from a compliment in my book.

Well, the U.S. isn't claiming they OWN california in 1821.. just that they have a right to it...

Yeah, and I'm saying that most Americans didn't think they had a right to California at the time. Maybe a small minority, but not most of the elite. Definitely not in 1821. Vast regions West of the Mississippi were still uncolonized. They weren't looking that far West yet.

ie, CB shields...

National province = province with a CB shield...

besides, what practical reason is there for waiting?

Practically, so the US doesn't conquer the continent so easily. In 1821, the US can then fight the Mexican war without any stability penalty.

1820, everything to the mississippi was pretty heavily colonized, or at least stable... exception = florida.

What about 1815?

 

[unmerged(8084)]

Look in post, MIN=Seminole. Yes I agree w/ you I will change event.

Originally posted by Lord Joseph




Um... who are MIN? Seminoles? Rght now the USA owns florida to start... so there is no reason they should automatically become independent. Give them HUGE revolt risks... but you have to allow for the AI, or more likely a human, to be able to deal with the revolts.

 

[unmerged(8084)]

Changed it.

Originally posted by Lord Joseph




Um... who are MIN? Seminoles? Rght now the USA owns florida to start... so there is no reason they should automatically become independent. Give them HUGE revolt risks... but you have to allow for the AI, or more likely a human, to be able to deal with the revolts.

 

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Originally posted by Ramo


Nah, not a fan. I do think that he was a good politician. Of course that's the furthest thing from a compliment in my book.



Yeah, and I'm saying that most Americans didn't think they had a right to California at the time. Maybe a small minority, but not most of the elite. Definitely not in 1821. Vast regions West of the Mississippi were still uncolonized. They weren't looking that far West yet.



National province = province with a CB shield...



Practically, so the US doesn't conquer the continent so easily. In 1821, the US can then fight the Mexican war without any stability penalty.



What about 1815?

\

I think the event is going to be left how it is for now... I have an passage from my history book, which seems to be the general idea from all my books... I will post that in a second... As for 1815... the game is started in 1820.. and my point is that the USA will not HAVE those territories in 1820, they can just add them as core provinces... it will take a few wars for the USA to get all that territory, which very easily may never happen, so i think it is important to start in 1820... further more, at some point, mexico should lose them as core provinces... though i am not sure when this should occur.

 

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Justification for Manifest Destiny-

"...In the early years of its existence, the United States was largely confined to the land east of the Mississippi River, but in the 19th century. it gained much territory though westward expansion. In 1803, Thomas Jefferson secured the Louisiana purchase from the French, which nearly doubled the size if the United States. IN 1819 Florida was acquired from Spain. Americans began to look even further further west, and many began to believe that the U.S. had a "manifest destiny" to occupy the whole North American continent from coast to coast."



balls in your court for a response

 

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Following the example of the Paradox events, I think we should have an event for each Presidential election.

 

[Faeelin]

No.

Hmm. How about the USA gets what the English get against Scotland and Mexico? Permanent CB's (as a manifest destiny option)? They can go to war without the stab costs, but they still look bad for rampaging across Canada and Mexico.

Also, can we have the louisiana purchase change the french catholic lands to anglosaxon protestant? Iowa was not catholic and french just because 800 frenchmen lived there in 1800.

 

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we start in 1820... those lands are already protestant and anglosaxon... and the Cbs are only for USA provinces, through different events... oregon, manifest destiny, texas... and... the sinking of the maine gives puerto rico... (game balence reasons, it gives the AI incentive to ask for it in peace)

 

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"...In the early years of its existence, the United States was largely confined to the land east of the Mississippi River, but in the 19th century. it gained much territory though westward expansion. In 1803, Thomas Jefferson secured the Louisiana purchase from the French, which nearly doubled the size if the United States. IN 1819 Florida was acquired from Spain. Americans began to look even further further west, and many began to believe that the U.S. had a "manifest destiny" to occupy the whole North American continent from coast to coast."

If this is a justification for making California a national territory in 1821, it's also a justification for making all of Canada and Mexico US national territory, which is insane in terms of both historocity and game-play.

the sinking of the maine gives puerto rico...

The US has to win a war first. If Spain somehow becomes a world power again in this scenario, there's no guarantee it would lose a war to the US.

(game balence reasons, it gives the AI incentive to ask for it in peace)

Nah, we could just make Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and possibly Cuba on the list of American priority territories.

They can go to war without the stab costs, but they still look bad for rampaging across Canada and Mexico.

That isn't accurate. There was dissent against the War of 1812 (the Hartford Convention) and there would've been dissent against invading Mexico in 1821. I think that the most historically plausible solution is for the US to gain CB shields over the West in the '40's.

 

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The CB shields for california and the west are gonna start in 1820 for now. If the USA is running rampant in beta, we will change it, but I cannot find any historical documentation that states manifest destiny started in the 40s.

As for the Philipines, Puerto Rico... thats fine. My only intention was to help govern the USA's requests IF it would win... but if we can go about that another way, thats fine...

You took that "gives puerto rico" way outa context. read the post... it gave the USA a CB shield on puerto rico, again, for game balence reasons, to help govern the AI... I never said it would literally seced Puerto Rico to the USA.

You aren't really making sense with the first thing you said... if you really wanna give the USA a CB for all of mexico and canada, go for it. I just wanted to do the historically accurate action. I am perfectly aware what the text reads, but once again... take it in context.

 

[Faeelin]

Ths is Europa Universalis. It's an exercise in AH. If the US chooses "This continent is part of America's heritage. Leave or die!" or somesuch, it should get cb's on mexico and canada forever. It's a valid idea.

 

[unmerged(6603)]

Nah... we could always script some event that gave them a CB on mexico or canada if they chose that route, but not sheilds.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

but I cannot find any historical documentation that states manifest destiny started in the 40s.

Again, you're missing my point. A national province has two implications:
1. The province is a legitimate casus beli. Again Polk was the person who made the Mexican war legitimate in the eyes of Congress and other states.
2. The province suffers no nationalistic revolt risk. The reason why California was nationalistically assimilated into the US so quickly was because colonists settled much of the country and were looking even further West at at the time, and more importantly, because of the gold rush.

That's why California should be national provinces only in the 40's when Anglo-Saxon/Protestant/American immigration becomes significant.

You aren't really making sense with the first thing you said... if you really wanna give the USA a CB for all of mexico and canada, go for it. I just wanted to do the historically accurate action. I am perfectly aware what the text reads, but once again... take it in context

No, no. You misunderstand completely. I was simply saying that if the text that you quoted is a justification for making California national territory in 1821, it's also a justication for making the rest of North America national territory (you'll note that the text mentions all of North America, not just California and Oregon)), which is obviously unhistorical to the extreme.

And what context are you referring to?

It's an exercise in AH.

The events should be based on history, not made up.

 

[unmerged(6603)]

But at the same time... Cali and all those are now cities... which they hardly were when under mexican control. While there might be some historical inconsistencies, i believe this is the best war to reach the same result most of the time.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

There's a number of ways to insure that the cities aren't heavily colonized by the Mexicans other than having the US conquer 'em earlier. For example, initially set the DP sliders all the way to land. And they're Catholic, so they don't get many colonists anyways.

Or, we could have a "Gold Rush" event that changes a lot of the West into Anglo-Saxon/Protestant.

That's more historical than setting off the Mexican War 20 years early.

 

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Already have the gold rush event in

I don't know... just because the AI had the Cb shields doesn't mean it will declare war... but without them it definately won't. If you give it to them in 1840, it will take them til 1880 to figure it out, etc. I will write an option to not take manifest destiny in 1820, and have that trigger something during the 1840s... but it will be the UNHISTORIC option... I think this subject is probably best dropped til beta. I don't tihnk we are going to reach a concensious on it, and its best to just test it out and see what happens, IMO.

 

[unmerged(1196)]

If you're worried about a late DOW, just give the US a "temporary" permanent CB on Mexico expiring til the '40's, when it gets the sheilds.

Again, the nationality changed primarily because of the gold rush and to a lesser extent the fact that a lot of the prime land East of California was taken up.

 

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CB shields also "assist" the AI in demanding provinces in a war.