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This area is reserved for all news about the developement progress of (v.)U.M.P -
developed by:
unknown-X-, Wilhelm II, Mozart41st


Current version: (v)U.M.P v0.02a for 1.03 - Get it here

Estimated time for next version: TBA

Progress bar for (v.)U.M.P v0.02b :

Economy developement - 0%
AI developement - 2%
Events and changes developement - 0%
Tech modifications developement - 0%
Starting resource pool and resource balance developement - 0%
 
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Mozart41st

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Victoria United Modifications Project- Release discussion thread

Well, to get the ball rolling, I am going to suggest what we should probably expect to see this mod. This thread is for Unknown, myself, and the community to discuss what changes should be integrated from each mod. Unknown and I are the developers, so naturally we shall have a say, but you guys are going to be the ones playing it, so your thoughts are vital as well.

Let us turn to the first item of discussion of what should be integrated.

-My events
-Unknown's AI files

This should be without too much dispute.

We will also incorporate the smaller mods of Dale's Australia mod, The Brazil Mod, Xyrix's Paris Commune Mod.

These too, should be without too much disagreement.

Next we turn to the complicated issue of economy, and the one area which Unknown and I both worked very hard on, and, unfortunately, in very different ways. Let us take a moment to consider the work each of us has done.


-My economic model is the result of a lot of hardwork, testing and feedback from the community. It could be briefly described with the following changes
-----------------------------------------------------
-Most importantly, output is 1.5 times what it is in Vanilla Victoria. This was the original purpose of my creating a mod in the first place, something to serve as an "economic patch". While, of course, the mod grew to much greater proportions, it is still something I feel very strongly adds to the game.
-Prices of base RGO goods increased by 1. This was done to help out the minor nations and to help make an agrarian economy just a little bit more feasible, especially since many of them cannot expand their RGOs anymore.
-The prices of cement, small arms, ammunition, glass, fabric, canned goods and lumber have been increased by 1.
-The cost in resources for railroads was multiplied by three to represent the increase in output.
-Pop demand for paper and regular clothes was cut by half to help get more of these items in circulation.
-The price of expanding RGOs increased from 100 to 1000.
-Industrial events which give you machine parts now give you paper and regular clothes as well.
-The cost of irregulars have been increased from 300 to 1000 to slow down China's monstrous armies.
-The resources required for building colonial buildings are increased by 5. This is to reflect the increase in output, as well as slow things down.
-The monetary cost of building colonial buildings has been doubled.

Unknown's list of economic changes in his thread is rather brief, and I hope that he can elaborate on them for us. I believe that the crux of his economic model revolves around different building priorities for the AI. Unknown has made it clear in the past that he does not believe increasing output is the way to go.
-------------------
*Reduced input resources for ammunition factories. Requires now only 2/3 of coal and iron and 3/4 of sulphur.
*Some minor tweaks here and there



While I am naturally biased, I hope for the economic model from the Community Mod to be the basic blueprint for the Victoria United Mod Project, I am not so blind as to think that it is without fault. Given Unknown's altered building priorities, I think that a 5% decrease in production output, from the earlier quoted 1.5X, would be approriate.

I would probably want to give my increased goods prices the axe, given Unknown's new building priorites, they are probably no longer necessary. I would probably want to alter the prices of colonies one way or another to take into account the changes that Unknown's AI files would bring. But exact numbers could not be determined until proper play-testing has been done.

Well, these are my thoughts on what VUMP 1.0 should consist of. I respectfully give the floor to the players and unknown at this time.
 
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-Prices of base RGO goods increased by 1. This was done to help out the minor nations and to help make an agrarian economy just a little bit more feasible, especially since many of them cannot expand their RGOs anymore.

This is a good idea for helping out minor countries and i agree with it!

The prices of cement, small arms, ammunition, glass, fabric, canned goods and lumber have been increased by 1.

Here i can't give you how much i changed these prices in my mod compared to original, because once, i know, i reduced these prices by 20%, then i lowered them by 5%, then there was a moderate increase of 7% and then i cut lumber and some other prices by half. Fabric prices were also altered...and so much more, don't even remember what the prices were in the beginning.

-Pop demand for paper and regular clothes was cut by half to help get more of these items in circulation.

I did something similar, don't have the access to economy files right now, but i know for sure that i lowered pop need for paper and regular clothes.

-The price of expanding RGOs increased from 100 to 1000.[/qutoe]

Hmm...This must be one of the worst thing's a modder could do to AI. In my mod the price increase was moderate 100 to 150+. Thing is that AI is a RGO expanding maniac...and i think that in U.M.P you won't see such high prices.

-Industrial events which give you machine parts now give you paper and regular clothes as well.

I don't see why this is necessary, because you can always buy paper and regular clothes from the WM.

The cost of irregulars have been increased from 300 to 1000 to slow down China's monstrous armies.

Good idea solving the china problem, but it really hurts other asian/african countries, so we have to find a way to compensate.


-The resources required for building colonial buildings are increased by 5. This is to reflect the increase in output, as well as slow things down.

Colonization really need futher changes. I agree with all changes you have made, but we need to improve it even futher.


The cost in resources for railroads was multiplied by three to represent the increase in output.

Ahh...the PAIN. This seems like a good way of slowing human player from industrializing too fast, but it really kills all that is left of AI, i'd vote for decreased railroad expanding costs.

And i still don't think that dramatic output increase is necessary, but if it is implented expect prices to drop from 20 - 40 % .
 

Lusitania

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Corruption

I do not know if it is possible but one way to try to limit the countries like China from building huge armies is to mimic the corruption that these countries had. For every dollar that would be collected by these governments in taxes the government would get less than .25 the rest was taken by the all the people in government (corruption)

This would limit these countries in terms of rate of industrialization and army building. The basic raw materials that they produce would continue. Countries would need to implement costly social and economic changes to be able to reduce the corruption.

While this might make it more difficult for people who want to make China a world power but then taking China and modernizing that country should not be easy and not always successful.

This is my two cents.
 

Mozart41st

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Great post Unknown, I will post my reasons for why I have always felt that increased output has helped, and of course, you are perfectly free to disagree. And of course, with your new AI files, the same increase in output that worked well in Community Mod may not be as necessary.

1. Increased output helps out considerably at that crucial stage at the beginning of the game where it seems like you are helpless to try to make money in Vanilla 1.02
2. It also makes the game more realistic. There is no reason why any European country would have to choose between, for example, having a standing army and industrializing, as is often the case in Vanilla Victoria (hereafter labled "VV")
3. It gets more of the rare goods that people need, like regular clothes and furniture, on the market, since more are being made. This point may not be as needed if your AI files result in much greater AI industrialization.
4. This point is a bit harder to explain, but I have found that it makes the game more dynamic. By being able to make a little more money, but having optional things like railroads and colonies be much more expensive, I feel that it both gives the player more choices, and makes the game more unpredictable.
5. It simply makes the game more fun, IMHO. The choices that VV forces you to make are simply not fun ones, or rather, not as fun as they should be. And if you look at some of the posts in general discussions you will find that most players would probably agree. Fun has always been the main priority of the Community Mod and it's prime philosohical driving motivation. I know that challenge has always been what is most important to your Victory-X mod, and that may explain our difference in opinion on this subject.

So, I think that your mod would probably address point three rather well, but probably not the others to any real extent. But I want to carry over your philosophy of challenge, which was so important to the Victory X mod. So I think that maybe instead of the 45% I asked for earlier, a mere 35-40% increase in production would be the best.

As for the rest of your suggestions earlier, they are fine. I can take or leave my changes to irregular army size and RGO price. The only one that I might stand behind are my industrial events which give paper, clothes, and furniture. I like those because they make sure that you are able to build a craftsmen when you get machine parts. But if they are not necessary with your new AI, they can certainly be dropped.
 

Mozart41st

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Good idea Lusitiania, I can't say for sure that it is possible, but I think I might just be able to do something like that for China. I will check it out.
 
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I said this before but here;

We should have literacy funding + % literate of country give a
bonus to overall wage rate to represent beuracratcs (non clerk),teachers,professors,government institutions, etc....

What I offered was a +.5 or 50% bonus to wages as your literacy goes up and according to your overall funding of the program. I postead this in
Suggested Improvements thread in general section and the only person
with constructive replies was Duncan Idaho. If this could be made or should it be made.
[(literacy+funding rate)/2]*.5= wage bonus
ex: [(50+50)/2]*.5=1.25 overall wage rate (i think)
 
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1. Increased output helps out considerably at that crucial stage at the beginning of the game where it seems like you are helpless to try to make money in Vanilla 1.02

I agree with this. But there is one problem. I think that there will be too big overproduction on WM in the end. And if paradox removes the "hidden WM" and reforms WM back to similar we saw in 1.01, then we are in big trouble.

It gets more of the rare goods that people need, like regular clothes and furniture, on the market, since more are being made. This point may not be as needed if your AI files result in much greater AI industrialization.

In reality it does not. Mybe human player who has gathered a great nr of prestige can get all these goods, but AI was in real trouble. Also, i think that POP everyday-, luxury- and lifeneeds are a littel bit high for majority of goods. This seems to really hurt AI who always tries to tax maximum out of their subjects.

This point is a bit harder to explain, but I have found that it makes the game more dynamic. By being able to make a little more money, but having optional things like railroads and colonies be much more expensive, I feel that it both gives the player more choices, and makes the game more unpredictable.

Colonies may be more expensive, but i'd stay with the increased build time introduced in Victory X from the beginning, i didn't look if you had increased build time. Railroad cost must not be increased, i'd vote for moderate decrease in costs.

Btw, very interesting approach, karlmarx. Mybe you'd be interested in working closer with (v)U.M.P ?
 

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I must say I'm leaning particularly closer to at least the basic income/economic/output model of Victoria X rather than Community Mod. Fire up a game as the UK in Victoria X. You can make money but it isn't a cakewalk. Try the UK with Community Mod and you can fully fund everything and still earn a profit on Jan 1st, 1836. There's no fun in that . . . . and it's just plain silly. Imagine 20 years later when your economy is thriving. Still having fun? Might as well be editing the save file giving yourself money.

Of course we have bigger fish to fry. Can't play the UK if Victoria X keeps crashing 3-10 years into the game. :)
 
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JohnMK, i really can't figure out the problem. I will try doing a clean install from cd tonight and see what is causing that. Probably a minor mistake in some event file. One thing you might try - copy a clean 1.02 revolt.txt file over my modified revoly.txt file. Revolt.txt is located in victoria/db/revolt.txt ...hope that works.

Newsflash! Community mod has been succesfully paired with Victory X megamod. Scientists are doing test-runs as we speak.
 

Mozart41st

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Since I never see you on MSN, why don't you post an alpha version for us all to test , Unknown? I will integrate it with the just released version of the Community Mod, if need be.
 
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The Regent said:
You guys need any events done? I'm working on some new events and tweaking some old ones for Japan right now. Yes, no, maybe?

Yes, ofcourse! I was making improved AI files for Japan, but havn't quite found the time to complete them. With your improved events i would have easier time tweaking the ai, so keep us posted about your progress!
 

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I'm just about through fixing little inaccuracies in the historical end...shouldn't be too much longer before I start making some more completely new events.

Also, I've put up a discussion board for your mod here: UMP Board. Its set for guest posting right now, so feel free to use it as much as you want.
 

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i was wondering if the the UMP will work together with the VIP-project. i'm really looking forward to both of them but the events could interfere with each other, so a mixed UMP-VIP could make errors etc.
do you want to cooperate with the VIP team or do you plan these two mods strictly divided?
 
Nov 15, 2003
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www.sanguo-online.com
I don't know what the "big wigs" of VIP project have in mind. I don't have anything against VIP-UMP project. And i don't think there would be any errors when these two mods are used together.
Mybe, in future, we can divide things like this: UMP contains modifications for - AI, Economy and all changes NOT related with events, because looking at VIP forum there seems to be plenty of them.