Unit pack for Greece/States in Greece?

[Tomray94]

From what I could tell, there will be another two DLCs after this one, that will most likely focus on South America, the Middle East, and rework some majors.
The Balkans have a very good variety of unit models, mostly thanks to Emperor, but there are still certain areas there which contain little flavor in that regard.

I would humbly like to request a unit pack for either the formable nation of Greece or the (mostly) Catholic minor states, like Epirus, Athens, Naxos, Achaea, Morea, or even Lusignan Cyprus. This could be somewhat relevant to the Middle Eastern rework, especially in the case of a place like Cyprus. I suppose the Byzantine or generic Eastern units may work alright for the Orthodox states in the area, plus they are releasables, but the Catholic states could use some flavor like that, even if they all have to share the same set of models.

My suggestion in regards to the unit models would be:

- Tier 1: have a somewhat archaic-looking (using late 14th century gear) western man-at-arms, inspired by the findings at the Venetian-era fortifications of Chalcis.

Tier 1 Examples, the full armor was reassembled from various parts of the Chalcis hoard in the early 20th century, while elements of it draw criticism today, it appears reliable enough to use as reference. The other two images are alternate helmets found there that could be used instead of the one shown:

- Tier 2: it could be some stradiot-like light-armored soldier, since stradiots appear to have been both Greek and Albanian.
Examples:

- Tiers 3 and 4: could be inspired by the the Klephts, Armatoles and the later Evzones uniforms.
Examples (in order):

- Alternate Tier 4: it could also hypothetically be a more westernized variant of Greek line infantry, like one that utilizes the outfit of the Sacred Band.

This would reflect the hypothetical gradual Hellenization that these states would have possibly undergone, as well as the lasting influences left behind by them living side-by-side with the Ottoman state and Turks in general.

By making the separation between Greece and Byzantium deeper, through the implementation of things like end game tags and the philosophy followed for Greece in other games, like HoI 4 and possibly even Vic 3, it is clear that the developers understand the distinction between Hellas and Eastern Rome (even if the latter continues to be an integral part of the history of the former). I think this justifies the different set of models I am proposing.

 

[Tomray94]

I just noticed that this was not posted to the suggestions page, could a moderator move it there?

 

[gigau]

to the Suggestions subforum.

 

[Tomray94]

to the Suggestions subforum.

thank you!

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

If you have the Purple Phoenix DLC, Greece will use the Byzantine unit models. Beyond that, I do agree that BYZ and GRE need seperate unit models, but this is the best possible solution, espeically considering BYZ's later unit models do come close to the proposed Tier 3 and Tier 4 proposals.

 

[Tomray94]

If you have the Purple Phoenix DLC, Greece will use the Byzantine unit models. Beyond that, I do agree that BYZ and GRE need seperate unit models, but this is the best possible solution, espeically considering BYZ's later unit models do come close to the proposed Tier 3 and Tier 4 proposals.

I did not know that. Is it a recent change? Because last Greek campaign I did I was stuck with generic eastern units if I recall correctly. It wasn't too long ago either, around 2020 if I am not mistaken.

I am not going to hide the fact that I think tiers 3-4 of the Byzantine pack are too different from my own proposals and what happened historically. It makes sense for a hypothetical Byzantine resurgence, which would expand into Anatolia and assimilate certain Turkish populations and styles, but not for Greece.

Tiers 1 and 2 from Purple Phoenix are fitting however, that's true. Problem is that Greece has an administrative tech limit of 10 before it can be formed and the Greek cores event appears around the 1600s, so at that point a player is already on track to getting tier 3 of units. This is also why I recommended designing and sharing the units with the Catholic minors in the area, so we could hopefully get a full unit pack.

We will most likely not see any of these suggestions in game, but a man can hope!

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

This is also why I recommended designing and sharing the units with the Catholic minors in the area, so we could hopefully get a full unit pack.

I would argue that the Crusader States in the region would use more Italian related uniforms as they go forward. For sure their garrisons would Greek uniforms, but the actual uniforms would continue to be heavily inspired by Sicily and Neapolitan fashion.

Part of problem with designing a unit pack for Greece/Greek minors would be that you would have to find fashion that has a little Turkish influence as possible. For instance:

- Tiers 3 and 4: could be inspired by the the Klephts, Armatoles and the later Evzones uniforms.
Examples (in order):

These would be decent unit models for Greece, as they would be the most recognizable, but they have noticeable Turkish influence. So when I was doing my suggestions, I tried to find examples of Greek fashion during the 16-18th century that had minimum Turkish influence, which was mainly the Fez Hat. However, because Greek traditional fashion also has similar looking hats, which made it difficult to disceren whether the cap was or was not a Fez. As a result, when I did my suggestion for Greek unit models, I just went with the most common fashion of the period, the Fustanella, and suggested just changing the weapon from the Arqeubus to a rifle as there wasn't much change in Greek fashion until post-liberation when Greek fashion would start to lean European. As a result, I think that the Sacred Band would be an excellent Tier 4 model, as had the least amount of Turkish influence and really highlights the possible uniform of pre-liberated Greece.

Spoiler: Side Note

Side note: For my personal mod, I have Greece using Serbia's unit models from the Balkan Unit Pack in Emperor as their tier 4, as it fits quite well and looks decent. The code for it is below. If you wanted to use it you would need the Purple Phoenix pack, Balkan Unit Pack, and Cossacks Unit Pack (For the Cav. and Tier 2). Here's the code:

Byzantium_units = {

    country_trigger = {
        OR = {
            culture_group = byzantine
            }
        }
    
    sprite_infantry = {
        0 = BYZ_INFANTRY_1
        1 = FEO_INFANTRY_2
        2 = BYZ_INFANTRY_3
        3 = SER_INFANTRY_4
    }
    
    sprite_cavalry = {
        0 = SPA_NEWCAV_CAVALRY_1
        1 = FRA_NEWCAV_CAVALRY_2
        2 = ENG_NEWCAV_CAVALRY_3
        3 = FRA_NEWCAV_CAVALRY_4
    }
    
    sprite_artillery = {
        0 = BYZ_ARTILLERY_1
        1 = FEO_ARTILLERY_2
        2 = BYZ_ARTILLERY_3
        3 = NOV_ARTILLERY_4
    }
}

 

[Tomray94]

I would argue that the Crusader States in the region would use more Italian related uniforms as they go forward. For sure their garrisons would Greek uniforms, but the actual uniforms would continue to be heavily inspired by Sicily and Neapolitan fashion.

Part of problem with designing a unit pack for Greece/Greek minors would be that you would have to find fashion that has a little Turkish influence as possible.

These would be decent unit models for Greece, as they would be the most recognizable, but they have noticeable Turkish influence. So when I was doing my suggestions, I tried to find examples of Greek fashion during the 16-18th century that had minimum Turkish influence, which was mainly the Fez Hat. However, because Greek traditional fashion also has similar looking hats, which made it difficult to disceren whether the cap was or was not a Fez. As a result, when I did my suggestion for Greek unit models, I just went with the most common fashion of the period, the Fustanella, and suggested just changing the weapon from the Arqeubus to a rifle as there wasn't much change in Greek fashion until post-liberation when Greek fashion would start to lean European. As a result, I think that the Sacred Band would be an excellent Tier 4 model, as had the least amount of Turkish influence and really highlights the possible uniform of pre-liberated Greece.

The reason tier 1 of this suggestion is so noticeably Western is because that appears to be not only the Byzantine military uniform of the time (since Byzantium could only afford western mercenaries at that point and the Greek commanders/emperor's household also appear to have worn Italian armor), but also because it was intended to showcase the crusader heritage and close connections with venetians and genoese for these minor states.

I understand you weren't arguing against that tier, but it is important to note the the crusader kingdoms themselves, by the 3rd or 4th generations had already been partially hellenized in their aristocracy. This is most visible in the principality of Achaea, which had ceased existing by only a decade before the game starts. It is fair to assume that this hellenization process would intensify with time, since the last 1/3rd of the game take place in the age where nationalism and nation-states were formed, even if Italian and other influences remain to some extent.

You bring up a good point on the inability to find non-turkish-inspired uniforms. The best place to look at would probably be the Ionian isles, which were under Turkish control for barely 5-10 years, if even that. It did not cross my mind to make a specific research there for inspiration, I'll research it later.

Funnily enough, this idea came up in my mind when I was trying to choose unit models for a CK 3 Norman-Greek Hybrid Hellas campaign I was thinking of turning into a megacampaign and AAR.

Many of the models I had chosen for it were similar to yours, like some new world cavalry models and the wonderfully fitting Theodoro tier 2 unit, only difference was tier 1 where I love the Hungarian one too much to choose another (though the new Finnish tier 1 looks just as good, I have to say). Serbia's tier 4 was also the one I thought most fitting as well, that and Bosnia's.