"Unhallowed ground" as part of the spiritualist faction and potential bug

[Caspoi]

Recently it was shown that one of the goals of the spiritualist faction was to keep everyone away from tomb worlds as they are apparantly "unhallowed ground". Apart from the fact that not everyone wants to roleplay as spiritualists who are obsessed over "sacred worlds" (they approve if you colonize gaia worlds) a true problem could arise if your pops for one reason or another (*cough*horizon*cough*signal*cough*) were to be a species that is adapted to tomb worlds. It would not make any sense if your spiritualist hate you for colonizing worlds that they are biologically adapted to, their homeworld presumably is one of and which would be associated by a certain beloved being. My question is as such: will this apply even if your species has a tomb world preferrence?

EDIT: because a lot of people don't seem to be getting it this is specifically meant when you worship the Worm. Should your pops hate you for controlling your own capital because it has been "enhanced" by the worm?

 

[PalmettoExplorer14]

Recently it was shown that one of the goals of the spiritualist faction was to keep everyone away from tomb worlds as they are apparantly "unhallowed ground". Apart from the fact that not everyone wants to roleplay as spiritualists who are obsessed over "sacred worlds" (they approve if you colonize gaia worlds) a true problem could arise if your pops for one reason or another (*cough*horizon*cough*signal*cough*) were to be a species that as adapted to tomb worlds. It would not make any sense if your spiritualist hate you for colonizing worlds that they are biologically adapted to, their homeworld presumably is one of and which would be associated by a certain belaved being. My question is as such: will this apply even if your species has a tomb world preferrence?

I agree. I'm curious about this myself.

 

[terrycloth]

Recently it was shown that one of the goals of the spiritualist faction was to keep everyone away from tomb worlds as they are apparantly "unhallowed ground". Apart from the fact that not everyone wants to roleplay as spiritualists who are obsessed over "sacred worlds" (they approve if you colonize gaia worlds) a true problem could arise if your pops for one reason or another (*cough*horizon*cough*signal*cough*) were to be a species that is adapted to tomb worlds. It would not make any sense if your spiritualist hate you for colonizing worlds that they are biologically adapted to, their homeworld presumably is one of and which would be associated by a certain beloved being. My question is as such: will this apply even if your species has a tomb world preferrence?

I can see spiritualists being very unhappy with you worshipping the Worm who Waits.

 

[Caspoi]

I can see spiritualists being very unhappy with you worshipping the Worm who Waits.

Why? You said it yourself, you worship the Worm, which would be covered by spiritualism if anything.

 

[Lothmar]

I wonder if you can 'consecrate' tomb worlds and basically make them holy world and if that just balances out the tomb worlf malus or flips it. *chuckle*

 

[Talanic]

I can confirm that the Spiritualist FE gets upset (-50 opinion) if you activate Horizon Signal and turn your homeworld into a tomb world. Same if you uplift cockroaches on a tomb world Terra.

However, the penalty is singular - colonizing more tomb worlds does not add any more opinion penalty. Since it appears that fallen empires don't attack until you're at -75 opinion, you can still tread lightly and get by safely.

 

[Caspoi]

I can confirm that the Spiritualist FE gets upset (-50 opinion) if you activate Horizon Signal and turn your homeworld into a tomb world. Same if you uplift cockroaches on a tomb world Terra.

However, the penalty is singular - colonizing more tomb worlds does not add any more opinion penalty. Since it appears that fallen empires don't attack until you're at -75 opinion, you can still tread lightly and get by safely.

This is not about fallen empire opinion but your own spiritualist happiness. Recently on the stream they showed that the spiritualist faction dislikes it if you colonize tomb worlds which would be very odd in some cases (such as with the horizon signal).

 

[Foefaller]

I wonder if you can 'consecrate' tomb worlds and basically make them holy world and if that just balances out the tomb worlf malus or flips it. *chuckle*

Sure you can.

It's called "Terraforming them to be something other than Tomb Worlds"

 

[ringhloth]

The tomb worlds in game are still almost universally place where some catastrophic disaster happened, wiping out all life on the planet, and would have some serious bad vibes, spiritualism wise, regardless of your planet preferences.

 

[Caspoi]

Sure you can.

It's called "Terraforming them to be something other than Tomb Worlds"

But if you want them to be tomb worlds, what then?

 

[Caspoi]

The tomb worlds in game are still almost universally place where some catastrophic disaster happened, wiping out all life on the planet, and would have some serious bad vibes, spiritualism wise, regardless of your planet preferences.

Or it could be seen as a sign that you are protected and comforted if you are a worm worshipper, which is what I based it all of.

 

[Foefaller]

It could be that the Horizon Signal path creates it's own Spiritualist faction that would be OK with living on Tomb Worlds. It would make sense, especially if you do take that one choice at the very end...

Because yeah, other than that, Tomb Worlds can be built to pump out massive amounts of Society and Physics Research, and is definitely a reason to want to colonize one as a Tomb World, rather than terraform them into something better suited for non-Irradiated flesh-and-blood pops.

 

[Caspoi]

It could be that the Horizon Signal path creates it's own Spiritualist faction that would be OK with living on Tomb Worlds. It would make sense, especially if you do take that one choice at the very end...

Because yeah, other than that, Tomb Worlds can be built to pump out massive amounts of Society and Physics Research, and is definitely a reason to want to colonize one as a Tomb World, rather than terraform them into something better suited for non-Irradiated flesh-and-blood pops.

Hopefully yes, but this seems like one of the easy things to slip through the testing so I hope that Paradox will notice.

 

[Sportsmaster]

1) I have not yet triggered the Horizon Signal event chain (sadly), but tomb world adaption is regarded as unnatural in Stellaris. Those cockroaches would not have evolved without the incredible violence and radiation inflicted on their planet by whatever tragic civilization millennia ago. And risking the complete transformation of one's species requires abandoning everything that one is, has been, and will be; to be so cavalier about this *should* make anyone marginally uncomfortable at best. Particularly, from a spiritualist perspective, what would it mean for an entire species to have adapted themselves to a planet of death? What is also unnatural is that:

2) Tomb World Habitability grants 80% base habitability for all other known planet types (excepting Gaia which, of course, grants 100% to everyone regardless of origin).

If a player decides that pleasing their spiritualist faction, allies, or local fallen empire is more important than inhabiting tomb worlds, this decision would not significantly disadvantage them or their tomb world pops. To a much lesser extent than all other species, tomb world species are not bound to their home world type. They do not even need to inhabit their home world at all—and to remain there would be a choice. Well, this would be true if we were allowed to abandon our own colonies...

This is my personal rationalization for the spiritualist aversion to tomb worlds. But honestly, it is not a "slip up" or an "oversight" for Paradox to implement design decisions with which you do not agree. And why debate this at all before Utopia releases? We have no clue what this will look like in a month.

 

[Caspoi]

1) I have not yet triggered the Horizon Signal event chain (sadly), but tomb world adaption is regarded as unnatural in Stellaris. Those cockroaches would not have evolved without the incredible violence and radiation inflicted on their planet by whatever tragic civilization millennia ago. And risking the complete transformation of one's species requires abandoning everything that one is, has been, and will be; to be so cavalier about this *should* make anyone marginally uncomfortable at best. Particularly, from a spiritualist perspective, what would it mean for an entire species to have adapted themselves to a planet of death? What is also unnatural is that:

2) Tomb World Habitability grants 80% base habitability for all other known planet types (excepting Gaia which, of course, grants 100% to everyone regardless of origin).

If a player decides that pleasing their spiritualist faction, allies, or local fallen empire is more important than inhabiting tomb worlds, this decision would not significantly disadvantage them or their tomb world pops. To a much lesser extent than all other species, tomb world species are not bound to their home world type. They do not even need to inhabit their home world at all—and to remain there would be a choice. Well, this would be true if we were allowed to abandon our own colonies...

This is my personal rationalization for the spiritualist aversion to tomb worlds. But honestly, it is not a "slip up" or an "oversight" for Paradox to implement design decisions with which you do not agree. And why debate this at all before Utopia releases? We have no clue what this will look like in a month.

But these spiritualists, like the rest of the population have been indoctronated to love the worm, to worship it in their case, why would they hate me for living on worlds blessed by the Worm? I am not arguing that fallen empires of the spiritualist ethos wouldn't see my people as a bunch of crazies but that said bunch of crazies should not hate me for letting them countinue to live on worlds blessed by the Worm.

And seriously, I did not argue that the decision to make spiritualists dislike you for colonizing tomb worlds, even though I don't entirely agree with it, was an oversight, so don't insinuate that I did. However if this was an unintended consequence of that decision that they did not account for, which is entirely possible, then that is an oversight, that is what the word means.

 

[The Founder]

a true problem could arise if your pops for one reason or another (*cough*horizon*cough*signal*cough*) were to be a species that is adapted to tomb worlds

If you got that habitability trait, you get 60% base habitability on all other planets. Basically every basic type is a "secondary" class planet for your pops. Tomb worlds are more interesting for the science production bonuses and events then for the extra space anyway. And robots are best suited to use them. So colonising them is a Materialist thing all along.

Recently it was shown that one of the goals of the spiritualist faction was to keep everyone away from tomb worlds as they are apparantly "unhallowed ground".

I would really help if the game could differentiate beyond "is a tomb world". Not only for Spiritualist Players, but also for Spiritualist FE.
Like them getting annoyed at you terraforming a tomb world to habitable.
Or them knowing that those tombworlds created by the worm/ancient fortress explosion should not be forbidden, because nobody (except maybe your own pops) died in thier "creation".

 

[Caspoi]

I would really help if the game could differentiate beyond "is a tomb world". Not only for Spiritualist Players, but also for Spiritualist FE.
Like them getting annoyed at you terraforming a tomb world to habitable.
Or them knowing that those tombworlds created by the worm/ancient fortress explosion should not be forbidden, because nobody (except maybe your own pops) died in thier "creation".

That alone would probably help, if these particular tomb worlds that came from the arrival of the worm were to be considered hallowed instead then you will at least not be automatically hated by your spiritualist pops because you completed that event chain, though I still find the idea that they should be averse to that kind of world after all of that just happened to be somewhat odd.

 

[The Founder]

That alone would probably help, if these particular tomb worlds that came from the arrival of the worm were to be considered hallowed instead then you will at least not be automatically hated by your spiritualist pops because you completed that event chain, though I still find the idea that they should be averse to that kind of world after all of that just happened to be somewhat odd.

There is a logic behind this. Spiritualist believe in Spiritual stuff. Souls and the like.
A "Tomb World" is indeed a massgrave. Tombstones of Civilisational Suicide.

Religions is where we even get the idea of "Afterlife" and "Sanctitify of the dead body" from. From a pure materialist perspective, a dead body is nothing more then wormfood.

The simple solution would be a sort of "tag", "planetary flag" or buff. Set "consecratedTombworld flag" on every stellar generation tombworld. Maybe add it to rare cases like primitive nuclear war. And leave it off the rest.
Turning the check from planet type to a planet having the flag would be rather simple.

 

[Caspoi]

There is a logic behind this. Spiritualist believe in Spiritual stuff. Souls and the like.
A "Tomb World" is indeed a massgrave. Tombstones of Civilisational Suicide.

Religions is where we even get the idea of "Afterlife" and "Sanctitify of the dead body" from. From a pure materialist perspective, a dead body is nothing more then wormfood.

The simple solution would be a sort of "tag", "planetary flag" or buff. Set "consecratedTombworld flag" on every stellar generation tombworld. Maybe add it to rare cases like primitive nuclear war. And leave it off the rest.
Turning the check from planet type to a planet having the flag would be rather simple.

Hm, yes, there is some sense to it, although I think it could vary from spiritualist to spiritualist, where some (especially in xenophobic empires) might consider it proof of the superiority of your empire or some could consider to be a good thing if you rebuilt their old worlds but it is not that important to me, this thread is after all not supposed to be about the feature in general but some of the problems that might arise from it in specific circumstances.

 

[Caspoi]

One solution could be to have a "followers of the worm"-faction which could have followers from all ethoi but would mainly recruit from the spiritualist ethos and could thus compete with the standard spiritualist faction. They would have different faction goals to the standard spiritualists though where they might consider tomb worlds to be holy places, like loop buildings and black holes and some other things, some of which might coincide with the goals of the spiritualist faction.

The benefits of this would be a nice faction representing your choices in the game that would solve the problem that I have with loop followers hating you for inhabiting tomb worlds, offset the penalty to happiness from buildings like the spiral feed power hub which would actually make it a worthwile choice and show some of the religious conflict that probably would arise between the followers of the old religions and those of the Worm.