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Vincenzo_667

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Hi, I'm a complete noob at Vicky2, I picked it up only yesrterday on a steam sale, gave it a try and long story short I ended up wasting my entire night on playing and I came to the conclusion that it's an epic game and I really wanna laern to play it, but it's just way too complex for me to fully understand through try&fail experience, I could really use some advice on some of the core mechanics that the tutorials just don't cover (and I mean just goin through that thing took me like an hour or two ^^). I'm well familiar with CK II and EU IV gameplay, so the diplomatic part of the game I had no difficulties with - setting your nations politics, influencing nations, stealing puppets, waging war - no problem. But at around 1860 I suddenly dropped in score (playing UK) to only a second greatest power, being outrun by France. A petty inconvenience I thought, I'll declare a few 'shaming' wars on him, maybe take some puppets from his sphere and he'll be secondary again in no time, right? No. Decades later my UK is falling back more and more, suddenly USA has better industry score as well, before I know out I'm 4th in rank behind friggin' China... and whatever I seem to try to do, no matter how many technological levels ahead I get of them, they still beat me in industrial score, terribly much. Prestige was easy to farm, money with UK was basicaly infinite, I've had a strong enough and large enough army and navy to mess with almost anyone, but I've really struggled to farm any industrial score. Some of the things I've tried actually made my industrial score drop. I thought it would all get better once I would spam railroads everywhere and get ahead of the other powers in industrial tech, but that didn't help at all.


here's some screenshots to specify my desperate failure - I've been doing ok up until now. It's my first playthrough, I'm not heading for the stars, just learning how to play. Suddenly France gets a huge boost in their industry score and I just can't seem to get anywhere that level, so obviously I'm doing something wrong. ^^
aHRJJUs.jpg

kfUFo1P.jpg
 

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The answers are somewhat dependent on whether you've got just the base game, or the fully expanded version.

Two constants remain:
  • The USA gets a lot of immigration.
  • when China westernizes, the game goes very peculiar.
 

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Industrialization is the core mechanic of Vicky2, similar to how Trade is core to EUIV though even more intense. There are a lot of mechanics at work when it comes to industrialization. I'll try to cover the basics here but I'll probably forget a few things as it's a very complex subject like you mentioned.

Firstly, industry relies on raw materials, which are gained from RGOs. If you don't have access to the necessary raw materials your factories won't be able to make their products and will usually fail. This leads us to the subject of the market and to a lesser extent population types(pops in short) in Vicky2. The market is divided into 2 spheres: local and global. The local sphere is your own nation as well as anybody that shares a sphere with it, in your example you're playing the UK so your local market is your own territory as well as those of all your spherelings. If you were to place as Greece for example who is sphered by the UK at the start than the local market would be the same, however the priority is always with the UK as it's the sphere leader. The global market is everything that falls outside the realm of your local market. Your pops and factories first attempt to buy their needs from the local market and than attempt to buy the rest from the global market. Selling into the global market is even, which means that when X nation buys Y product from the global market, Y product is being sold to it evenly between all the nations producing it. However buying from the global market is prioritized based on prestige. The most prestigious nation gets to buy its pops'+factories' needs from the global market first, than the 2nd most prestigious, etc. That's why most uncivs and other low prestige nations can't support even infantry armies nor industrialize, they simply can't buy their needs from the global market as by the time it's their turn to buy the global market is already empty.

All pops in Vicky2 have money and use it to buy their needs. Different pop types have different needs, also needs are divided in 3 categories: life needs, basic needs, luxury needs, if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs than it should be simple to understand. When you click on your budget than hover over a certain pop type you can see how many of them get their life, basic and luxury needs. If you hover over the different needs in the pie chart than you'll see what those needs are for each class(poor, middle and rich). Pops also evolve and devolve over time. For example farmers can evolve into craftsmen, both in the same class but craftsmen generally being richer than farmers but also evolve into the middle class(bureaucrats, clerks and clergymen), likewise with the other classes. The formula is a well hidden secret but we do know that it is affected by education and you can further influence it by setting national focus in certain provinces to encourage your pops to evolve into a certain class. For example to maximize your research you want 2% clergymen in each of your provinces, so setting your national focus in a certain province to clergymen will induce your pops to become clergymen more than other professions. It won't be instant nor absolute, just another rather big factor in the evolution and devolution of pops.

Factories specifically require craftsmen to work in them. They also benefit from having Clerks(improves factory output) and Capitalists(improves factory input). This leads us to factory efficiency, there are 3 categories that make your factories more profitable: input, output and throughput. Better input means it requires less raw materials to make the same products, so if for example it takes 1 unit of coal to produce 1 unit of cement if you increase your input by 1% than it will now take 0.9 units of coal to produce the same 1 unit of cement. Better output means that for the same amount of raw materials you make more products, so as with the above example, if you increase your output by 1% than the same 1 unit of coal will now produce 1.1 units of cement. Throughput increases the overall efficiency of your factory, so as with the above example if you improve throughput by 1% than it will take 1.1 units of coal to produce 1.1 units of cement.

Throughput is clearly the worst bonus as it doesn't improve your resource efficiency at all, however throughput is generally gained at larger quantities than input and output bonuses and it still helps your factories to produce more goods and therefore generate more profits. The other ways to increase input, output and throughput other than pop types is technology and inventions, check the different technologies and inventions(in the industry tree for throughput, commerce for input and output) to see how you can improve your factories. There's also 1 other way to increase your factory efficiency: production chains. When you hover over a factory you will see the goods it needs to make its products. If those goods are available in the province the factory is built in you will get a throughput bonus of up to 25%. For example if you have a province with both grain and coal you can create a glass factory there followed by a liquor factory. Glass factories require coal whereas liquor factories require glass and grain, so in this scenario your glass factory will get a 25% throughput bonus for having coal in the province and your liquor factory will also get a 25% throughput bonus, 12.5% bonus from having glass in the province and 12.5% from having grain in the province.

So in order to have the most efficient industry you can have you want to focus on the goods your provinces have available and build factories in proper production chains. Keep in mind that your states won't have all the necessary resources in them, many of which you will get from your colonies and spherelings, and the global market for the rest. Some industries like Liquor can be efficiently built in the UK itself, as can Fertalizer, Steel, etc. Others like Textiles won't as the raw materials needed for the Textiles industry are gained primarily from India, where you only have colonies not states(so you can't build factories directly in India). So you should first prioritize the most efficient factory chains in the appropriate provinces, for example the Artillery chain(Fertilizer, Steel, Ammunition, Explosives, Artillery) in Wales and industries like Textiles in places with useless industrial RGOs like the 3 Irish provinces. Even if you don't have the raw materials for Textiles you still want to build the entire chain in a single province to get at least partial throughput bonuses, so make sure to build the Fabrics, Regular Clothes and Luxury Clothes factories in the same province. Same for Lumber, Regular Furniture and Luxury Furniture and other factory chains.
 

Vincenzo_667

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Industrialization is the core mechanic of Vicky2, similar to how Trade is core to EUIV though even more intense. There are a lot of mechanics at work when it comes to industrialization. I'll try to cover the basics here but I'll probably forget a few things as it's a very complex subject like you mentioned.

Firstly, industry relies on raw materials, which are gained from RGOs. If you don't have access to the necessary raw materials your factories won't be able to make their products and will usually fail. This leads us to the subject of the market and to a lesser extent population types(pops in short) in Vicky2. The market is divided into 2 spheres: local and global. The local sphere is your own nation as well as anybody that shares a sphere with it, in your example you're playing the UK so your local market is your own territory as well as those of all your spherelings. If you were to place as Greece for example who is sphered by the UK at the start than the local market would be the same, however the priority is always with the UK as it's the sphere leader. The global market is everything that falls outside the realm of your local market. Your pops and factories first attempt to buy their needs from the local market and than attempt to buy the rest from the global market. Selling into the global market is even, which means that when X nation buys Y product from the global market, Y product is being sold to it evenly between all the nations producing it. However buying from the global market is prioritized based on prestige. The most prestigious nation gets to buy its pops'+factories' needs from the global market first, than the 2nd most prestigious, etc. That's why most uncivs and other low prestige nations can't support even infantry armies nor industrialize, they simply can't buy their needs from the global market as by the time it's their turn to buy the global market is already empty.

All pops in Vicky2 have money and use it to buy their needs. Different pop types have different needs, also needs are divided in 3 categories: life needs, basic needs, luxury needs, if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs than it should be simple to understand. When you click on your budget than hover over a certain pop type you can see how many of them get their life, basic and luxury needs. If you hover over the different needs in the pie chart than you'll see what those needs are for each class(poor, middle and rich). Pops also evolve and devolve over time. For example farmers can evolve into craftsmen, both in the same class but craftsmen generally being richer than farmers but also evolve into the middle class(bureaucrats, clerks and clergymen), likewise with the other classes. The formula is a well hidden secret but we do know that it is affected by education and you can further influence it by setting national focus in certain provinces to encourage your pops to evolve into a certain class. For example to maximize your research you want 2% clergymen in each of your provinces, so setting your national focus in a certain province to clergymen will induce your pops to become clergymen more than other professions. It won't be instant nor absolute, just another rather big factor in the evolution and devolution of pops.

Factories specifically require craftsmen to work in them. They also benefit from having Clerks(improves factory output) and Capitalists(improves factory input). This leads us to factory efficiency, there are 3 categories that make your factories more profitable: input, output and throughput. Better input means it requires less raw materials to make the same products, so if for example it takes 1 unit of coal to produce 1 unit of cement if you increase your input by 1% than it will now take 0.9 units of coal to produce the same 1 unit of cement. Better output means that for the same amount of raw materials you make more products, so as with the above example, if you increase your output by 1% than the same 1 unit of coal will now produce 1.1 units of cement. Throughput increases the overall efficiency of your factory, so as with the above example if you improve throughput by 1% than it will take 1.1 units of coal to produce 1.1 units of cement.

Throughput is clearly the worst bonus as it doesn't improve your resource efficiency at all, however throughput is generally gained at larger quantities than input and output bonuses and it still helps your factories to produce more goods and therefore generate more profits. The other ways to increase input, output and throughput other than pop types is technology and inventions, check the different technologies and inventions(in the industry tree for throughput, commerce for input and output) to see how you can improve your factories. There's also 1 other way to increase your factory efficiency: production chains. When you hover over a factory you will see the goods it needs to make its products. If those goods are available in the province the factory is built in you will get a throughput bonus of up to 25%. For example if you have a province with both grain and coal you can create a glass factory there followed by a liquor factory. Glass factories require coal whereas liquor factories require glass and grain, so in this scenario your glass factory will get a 25% throughput bonus for having coal in the province and your liquor factory will also get a 25% throughput bonus, 12.5% bonus from having glass in the province and 12.5% from having grain in the province.

So in order to have the most efficient industry you can have you want to focus on the goods your provinces have available and build factories in proper production chains. Keep in mind that your states won't have all the necessary resources in them, many of which you will get from your colonies and spherelings, and the global market for the rest. Some industries like Liquor can be efficiently built in the UK itself, as can Fertalizer, Steel, etc. Others like Textiles won't as the raw materials needed for the Textiles industry are gained primarily from India, where you only have colonies not states(so you can't build factories directly in India). So you should first prioritize the most efficient factory chains in the appropriate provinces, for example the Artillery chain(Fertilizer, Steel, Ammunition, Explosives, Artillery) in Wales and industries like Textiles in places with useless industrial RGOs like the 3 Irish provinces. Even if you don't have the raw materials for Textiles you still want to build the entire chain in a single province to get at least partial throughput bonuses, so make sure to build the Fabrics, Regular Clothes and Luxury Clothes factories in the same province. Same for Lumber, Regular Furniture and Luxury Furniture and other factory chains.



Thanks, you're help is much appreciated. I'm glad somebody took the time for such a detailed reply.
The needs system of my pops was easy enough for me to understand, all of my three classes had their luxury needs satisfied most of the time. Setting a focus to encourage certain population type is something I did all the time, but probably not very effectively. I was encouraging mostly clergy in capital to research faster in early game, later craftsmen in states with factories and soldiers and officers during wartime. I also thought it was working for a whole region ('east anglia' for example) not a single province, so that where I might've been uneffective as well. RGOs I almost completely ignored because I was under the (obviously false) impresion that I could just buy whatever resources my factories are going to need from the global market myself - through the trade screen and stack them in the stockpile. Little too late did I realize that isn't how it really works, so yeah, I had a lot of provinces with heavy GMO unemployment. The problem is how to effectively counter this, I can't seem to be able to do anything else than to set focus which doesn't really help enough. I tried to encourage my pops flipping to a certain group by playing around with taxes by setting maximum taxes for the rich and almost no taxes for the poor to encourage moor people becoming crafsmen and farmers, but I'm not sure it had any real effect, does that work? I went for a completely libretarian government for the whole playthrough, so I wasn't directly building the factories myself at any point either, I was just upgrading and closing/opening + subsiding them. I guess I didn't realize how much better would it bo to have state capitalism and be able to build the factories I desire myself. Most importantly I didn't realize how complex and important the factory system in Vic2 really is and by the time I realized it was too late. It still bugs me though, where did he get all the working force? He was almost constantly at war and only had like 30mil population, while I had 80 mil and struggled with filling the factories all the time. Anyway, fun game, in the 1914 era I was waging two seperate defensive wars, one against France (I solved that with a full naval blockade, seems to be the best way to counter France as England in this game) and other against the westernized China in India, that was really the last big conflict of the whole playthrough (not just for me, but also for the AI's, that was nice to see).
I didn't wage too much war only declared like two or three wars and mostly against France before they became OP, I tried to focus on the peace time mechanics which are, in this title, plentifull and juicy.



when China westernizes, the game goes very peculiar.

You don't say. :D
txIfMEF.jpg

a8L9FBl.jpg

This is the first time I've ever played Vicky2 and this happens.... Communist Murica! Gotta love Paradox strategy games. Anyway, I'm hungry for more, thanks for the advice again, hopefully I won't fail as hard as before at the industralization part.
 

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Just to clarify, when I mentioned provinces in the above post it should have said regions, as you are correct setting a national focus in East Anglia for example affects the entire region. Provinces have different RGOs but factories are technically built in a region, not an individual province, so all the resources from the provinces within the region supports all the factories in that region. Likewise NF is set for regions not provinces. Also, you were not wrong, you can and do buy all the resources you need from the global market if you don't have them available at the local market, and as the UK you're generally always #1 in prestige so you always have first dibs on global market resources. With that said, as I mentioned above, your factories simply get a throughput bonus if you build them in regions with their required resources, that's all. As far as RGOs unemployment goes, that generally happens when your industry doesn't catch on to your population growth, whether it's natural growth, immigrants or colonial expansion. The more factories you have and the higher level those factories are the more craftsmen they employ, which in turn reduces the amount of farmers and miners in those regions which in turn lessens unemployment. If you don't have enough factories or if they aren't of a high enough level than eventually you will run out of jobs for your pops and will run into unemployment issues, which typically manifests itself in your farmers and miners(the RGO workers) because they're the poorest of the poor thus other unemployed pops eventually demote to farmers and miners.
 

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Usually in my games, China westernizing = total economic crash.

It doesn't take long before American nations (particularly USA) get 14,000 immigrants from China every month. Plus the Chinese artisans mass-produce everything in 10 times the original number, bringing down the prices of every single good and making it all a huge unprofitable loss for every other nation (except oil and Indian-grown dye).
 

Vincenzo_667

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For latest version of the game:

Industrial score = number of workers employed by factories

That's it. The factories don't need to be profitable.

Seriously, that's it, that's the whole stat? No more calculations to it, simply equal to the number of employed workers? That kinda sucks, but it's good to know, heh. I could've easily racked up 20k myself that way if I filled all the emploxement spots in my factories.

Anyway, playing a second game and it's a lot easier this time. No more pacifism, everyone knows that France needs to be constnantly at war to reach it's true potential.
JhqlK5u.jpg

2edSXFM.jpg
I noticed that while UK starts with the average literacy stat on cca. 25%, France allready starts with almost 50%, the boost is huge, at 1856 literacy is allready at 75% which makes boosting new tech very swift. Also, you don't have to cross the pond everytime you want to poke someone, I hate splitting units in this game, where is my split in half button? :D
 

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Plus the Chinese artisans mass-produce everything in 10 times the original number, bringing down the prices of every single good and making it all a huge unprofitable loss for every other nation (except oil and Indian-grown dye).

Just like IRL. ^^
 

Vincenzo_667

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I have trouble filling my RGO's again, I have all my focuses set on encouraging farmers/labourers in provinces with lot of factories, but it's still low as hell, I don't get it. Maybe I should cut my military budget to absolute minimum to disencourage people from becoming soldiers?
/also I abolished slavery really early, I thought it would encourage more immigrants to come to France, but now I think I might've robbed myself of cheap labor, what's the case? Also I'd really like to pass some social reforms (mainly health care to boost population growth), but no party doesn't seem to want to let me change those yet. I guess I'll just switch to socialism when the time comes. ^^
 
Last edited:

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I have trouble filling my RGO's again, I have all my focuses set on encouraging farmers/labourers in provinces with lot of factories, but it's still low as hell, I don't get it. Maybe I should cut my military budget to absolute minimum to disencourage people from becoming soldiers?
/also I abolished slavery really early, I thought it would encourage more immigrants to come to France, but now I think I might've robbed myself of cheap labor, what's the case? Also I'd really like to pass some social reforms (mainly health care to boost population growth), but no party doesn't seem to want to let me change those yet. I guess I'll just switch to socialism when the time comes. ^^
Slaves are worst than labourers or farmers. They have less efficiency, and they won't participate in your economy as much. Abolishing it can only be a good idea. Also, if you're not a American or Oceania country, the immigration you will get is close to 0, nothing to look at.
 

Vincenzo_667

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Well, I',m definetly doing better this time, but getting high industrial score is still a mystery to me and surely the hardest pat of the game. IDK, I encourage labourers everywhere - all 7 focuses used in high industial areas - it barely does anything for me and unemployment is still high, I have almost all tech unlocked, second best railroads everywhere, I've got a lot of land and population of around 30mil (which is exactly what the AI France in my previous game had at this year), I've got almost maximum factories in most provinces and most of them are upgraded at least to level 10, but I'm still only third in great power score. It almost seems to me like I'd be missing some key element that is so obvious that nobody bothered to point it out or something, but I really feel annoyingly powerless when it comes to raising industrial score. But whatever, third is good, surely better than last time. I'm currently fighting a series of wars against USA (rank 2 in the struggle for world domination :) ), I took Florida and some other clay from them and I'm planning to invade New York before end date, reclaiming the Statues of Liberty. Those yanks don't deserve it. But anyway, after capturing Florida I howered over it in the production sceen and noticed that it's factories were almost fully filled with employees, while most of mine very half empty at best. Does the AI cheat? :D

sWUFSuW.jpg
 

WankoStankins

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You don't really need the best industry to be #1 great power. Build up all of your naval bases to 5 and spam dreadnoughts once they're researched. You'll have military points in the thousands that will offset any deficiencies in Prestige or Industry.
 

Owl Raider

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Well, I',m definetly doing better this time, but getting high industrial score is still a mystery to me and surely the hardest pat of the game. IDK, I encourage labourers everywhere - all 7 focuses used in high industial areas - it barely does anything for me and unemployment is still high, I have almost all tech unlocked, second best railroads everywhere, I've got a lot of land and population of around 30mil (which is exactly what the AI France in my previous game had at this year), I've got almost maximum factories in most provinces and most of them are upgraded at least to level 10, but I'm still only third in great power score. It almost seems to me like I'd be missing some key element that is so obvious that nobody bothered to point it out or something, but I really feel annoyingly powerless when it comes to raising industrial score. But whatever, third is good, surely better than last time. I'm currently fighting a series of wars against USA (rank 2 in the struggle for world domination :) ), I took Florida and some other clay from them and I'm planning to invade New York before end date, reclaiming the Statues of Liberty. Those yanks don't deserve it. But anyway, after capturing Florida I howered over it in the production sceen and noticed that it's factories were almost fully filled with employees, while most of mine very half empty at best. Does the AI cheat? :D

sWUFSuW.jpg

You shouldn't get into a situation where you need to encourage farmers and laborers. Are you sure your RGOs are empty? If you hover over a specific RGO you'll see its production stats, as long as you get the 100% laborers/farmers stat you're fine, only if not than there's a problem. As mentioned above industrial score is tied to workers working in your factories, so if your factories are half empty than that's the reason your industrial score is stalling. Hover over the factories that are half empty of workers and try to understand why they don't employ more workers. Are they running at a loss so they can't afford more? Are they lacking in RGOs so they can't support more workers? Are there no more workers available? If you make sure you have high literacy, enough capitalists, have solid technology and have access to the necessary RGOs than there's no reason your factories should stall unless you expanded them way too quickly for your population.
 

KevinG

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Well, I',m definetly doing better this time, but getting high industrial score is still a mystery to me and surely the hardest pat of the game. IDK, I encourage labourers everywhere

You said you are encouraging laborers, but laborers don't add to your industry score. Only craftsmen/clerks do. Every full level of a factory provides 4 industry score. That's the ONLY calculation there is to determine industry. So you want to promote CRAFTSMEN, not LABORERS, and since promotion works as a % of your POPs in a state, you only want to promote craftsmen in your most POPULOUS states in ENGLAND. Don't bother promoting craftsmen in non-english or low population states. If you do this its impossible not to become #1 in industry as the UK.
 

Vincenzo_667

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That a was a mistake of course, I meant craftsmen. And I am playing as France now, I AM encouraging CRAFTSMEN in core French provinces with ALL 7 focuses and this is the Great Power score >
cXTSvrR.jpg

btw. notice that Prussia formed NGF

I'm not even bothered with it too much, I don't necessarily need to be n#1 to enjoy the game of course :D but my concern is that I have seriously spent all possible effort to raise my industrial score in this game and it only helped to be number 3, but nowhere near UK's 20000 score. When I played as UK the situation was reverse and it was France who had the 20000 industry score, so I'm clearly doing something terribly wrong, but I don't understand what it might be. Two things that come to my mind:

I have subsided ALL the factories, is this causing them to hire less people? I've done this so that I don't lose factory upgrade levels, but I'm not sure it doesn't have some terribad side effects. Might this somehow lower my industry score?

I have terribly high infamy of +170 in this game, does this somehow effect employement or industrial score?

When I check pops through the population screen I have 3.4 milion craftsmen.

/How important is it to upgrade Forts and Naval bases??? I never bothered much with these, I didn't realize that they raise warscore, I did know that dreadnoughts raise warscore a lot but I didn't realize it appliese to naval bases as well. Any effect of Forts on my population or industrial score?
I also realized pretty much too late that I should have upgraded my naval bases in Africa to get better colonial range, but that's a lesson I learned on my own.
 
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Owl Raider

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It's hard to say what you're doing wrong without seeing your factories. You've yet to comment on available resources and factory profitability. Those are certainly issues that need to be looked at. Another aspect of this is that if you manage to corner a market, especially rubber as it comes late game and is concentrated in a handful of places, all of which are outside Europe, than you can both increase your own industrial score and lower your opponents' scores as they won't be able to support their own late game factories if you're making and using all the available rubber in the world. You can do this to a lesser extent with the textiles industry if you're the UK, as you already have all of India which is the only dye producer until artificial dye factories, so if you can also control the vast majority of cotton and silk than you can achieve similar results: having a booming textiles industry while crushing everyone else's textiles industry. You can do this to a much lesser extent with coal, as while most powers start with some coal producing provinces, coal runs out very quickly as it's used by a ton of factories. So if you manage to corner the Chinese coal, which hold the largest coal producing regions in the world, than you can have extremely well developed coal industries while simultaneously hampering everyone else's too.
 

Vincenzo_667

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Well, I think I'm starting to get a grip of it, it's raising much faster and higher now, I guess it's just too much tedious micromanagement for me to do it right.. I mean I just upgraded almos all naval bases, forts in inland provinces and almost all factories and that means clicking like 500 hundred times, which is just crazy and it makes me wanna kill myself. ^^ I wish I could use a focus to upgrade forts/naval bases/factories the same way I can upgrade railroads, is there a mod or DLC that enables me to do that? Also what exactly do the DLC's bring to the game and how much am I loosing by playing just vanilla without DLCs?

Here's some screenshots of my factories >
i8Hozb6.jpg

Now this set is obviosly doing well

Hqq0BiR.jpg

But then I have a bunch of regions that are in an unemployment crisis and simple focus > craftsmen doesn't seem to help as much as I thought it would


But I'm very comfortable with other aspects of the game. Waging war is satisfying and simple enough if you are a great power. I love the fact that huge battles can take years even and that superior numbers are not all that important, I had one huge battle that lasted for almost 3 years and gave me like 25 warscore. New York conquered, viva la France, imagine the SoL wrapped in the french tricolora and the streets of Manhattan full of baguettes. Mission acomplished, pretty much. :D
2mBSPHl.jpg
 
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