Undocumented Westernization Changes

[oblio-]

"Westernising" should definitely be difficult and exceptional. But with a point of divergence set in 1444, Eastern/Indian/Chinese/Muslim nations should have some way to remain competitive with the west.

At the moment they can't due to:
1. Tech cost penalty
2. Monarch point generation penalty
3. Worse starting tech
4. Worse troops almost all game long
5. Worse national ideas
6. Worse bonuses and events (since Europe is so well fleshed out compared to the rest of the world, it has a tons of events which grant extra monarch points or reduce tech costs)
7. Worse religions (somewhat better since 1.5 though)

Especially the monarch point part is awful. If you expand at a decent rate you just cannot keep up in tech and ideas. Maybe, maybe, if you make a lot of sacrifices you can keep up in one direction, usually military, but even so you'll have a maximum of 2 military idea groups (I doubt they'll be full though).

Oh, and of course, there are no lucky nations outside of Europe (I need to check but I'm quite sure about this). I don't understand why Manchu (for example) isn't lucky.

 

[Mauer]

I can't see why being more technologically advanced would make it harder to westernize and not the other way around.

 

[Benevolence]

Another "fun" change to westernization is the new Colonial Company modifier that makes it impossible to westernize of colonies since the AI seem to add it to anything outside of Europe. They really made it necessary to play completely gamey and silly to start westernizing now.

 

[glorioso2011]

I'm glad it's being made harder. There's only two examples of this actually happening in real life.

 

[Frederick III]

I'm glad it's being made harder. There's only two examples of this actually happening in real life.

I think the problem isn't that it's hard, it's that its difficulty is illogical and arbitrary.

I mean really, what is the logic behind requiring a country to be behind in tech to westernize?

 

[Benevolence]

One thing I don't understand is why they still haven't brought back the partial westernization they had at some point in EU3, being able to bring yourself up to the same level as your neighbours made a lot more sense than having to spend most of the game getting a border with the magical europeans.

 

[oblio-]

I'm glad it's being made harder. There's only two examples of this actually happening in real life.

And there's no example of Japan conquering Portugal in real life, yet I can do it in game. Should that be impossible, too?

 

[Mauer]

One thing I don't understand is why they still haven't brought back the partial westernization they had at some point in EU3, being able to bring yourself up to the same level as your neighbours made a lot more sense than having to spend most of the game getting a border with the magical europeans.

I'd like to go Ottoman as a Muslim and then maybe I won't go full Western if it's not worth it or necessary depending on how the game unfolds. But also keep full westernization an option like Japan did.

 

[PeterCorless]

I believe that I'd like to "eat the elephant" one bite at a time. It would be nice if you could navigate gradually towards Westernization.

I mean, Native American tribes didn't entirely "westernize" in terms of legal systems, economics, or scientific developments, but they sure as heck understood the power of the horse and the gun!

The same thing with the Japanese. They adopted the gun in a big way when they saw the Portuguese designs.

"Modernization" is not done overnight. It is done in fits and starts. It would be nice if nations could gradually "buy out" their maluses to eventually westernize; say, go from +50% down to +40%, to +30%, etc., until you were at the "westernized" level of 0% modifier. Players could do that by each type of MP -- so they could "modernize" their Military or Diplo tech while leaving Admin in the medieval era. As they progress through the different penalty stages, they could "upgrade" to different unit mixes.

Make the entire process more digestible and discreet.

I'm not asking to see all of Asia westernized by 1550. But it would be nice if some of the go-getter nations in Asia were eventually let into the big leagues without all sorts of ahistorical, illogical, counterintuitive gamey backwards machinations.

 

[oblio-]

Yeah, a more gradual process involving multiple steps would be fine. It should also involve neighbors IMO - a horde should be able to learn from the Ottomans or from Russia. Shorter periods of intense opposition would also be fine - I reform the administration up to Ottoman standards, I get huge noble rebellions for 2 years. I then upgrade my military to Russian standards, 3 more years of rebellion, this time pretender rebels - a general revolting.

Make the process longer, less radical and with stronger opposition but for shorter amounts of time. From sub-saharan to western in 60 non-continuous years spread out across the centuries and with a total period of 10 non-continuous years of revolts.

 

[mursolini]

Sad thing is that starting a game with Ming would show that there's no available rivals because Ming is too strong. Unless the devs think that having no rivals is OK, this perfectly shows the level of testing 1.6 went through.

At 50 Power Projection you get an extra Admin, Mil, and Diplo point per month. No rivals means no chance to increase MP gain for Ming which they need more than most countries since like other Chinese/Indian tech countries they get 1 less base monarch point for all categories per month.

Why not? Huge empires tend to become too reliant on tradition and decadent without strong rivals to keep them fit. It is a kind of comback mechanics, and it is realistic.

Would`ve be far better if the new rival mechanics was improved and tech penalties fully replaced by it and other mechanics, where a single strong Chinese or Japanese state would tech horribly due to having no real incentive to, but if Ming collapses, parts could`ve teched faster due to rivalry forcing innovation.

That way huge European empires could become as slow in tech as China, while a healthy rivalry in middle east if it would`t fall to ottomans could`ve keep the place a teching leader, that it was before 1500s or something.(and, NO, I`m not interested in a milion-pages debate as to when Europe became tech leader, as it is irrelevant here).

 

[glorioso2011]

And there's no example of Japan conquering Portugal in real life, yet I can do it in game. Should that be impossible, too?

Westernization isn't impossible, it's just really hard. As is conquering Portugal with Japan.

 

[KiLaNova]

Why can't paradox allow us to westernise certain areas of our government.

E.g. I want to westernise my military. Let me hire western advisors (money/monarch points) to slowly westernise my troops while diplomacy/admin remains the same eastern tech.

Also I don't see why my admin/diplo tech should lag behind the west just cos i'm ROTW. Pretty sure in during that time period, certain non-western cultures had more advanced administrative(e.g. Ming Dynasty)/diplo systems.

 

[Casus_Belli]

Westernising needs to be overhauled, particulary for eastern nations, they shouldn't need to be 8 techs behind, maybe 4 at most. If they westernise then they are at a disadvantage compared to their western nations. Then all others should have 8-10 (depending on group). I mean, sure the Japanese were behind when they westernised, but I don't remember hearing about Russia being so unadvanced.

They're just my ideas, feel free to disagree!

 

[Kyoumen]

I'm glad it's being made harder. There's only two examples of this actually happening in real life.

1) Dozens if not hundreds of countries Westernised in terms of the game. Where exactly did you think every successful native polity got guns and horses from, Cherokee writing, new native governments, etc? Where exactly do you think the Ashanti Empire got their westernised troops that defeated British armies from? How about Mysore?

Actually, that's not true though, since in 1.6, you can't actually do any of these things that happened in real history, thanks to the nerf on Westernisation and the fact Paradox does not want to add any logistics to the game that make it conceivable for a middle-sized Indian power to beat the British Empire in a war. Even though that actually happened.

2) China had two wars with Europeans in the game timeframe and won both of them. By your logic and the logic of every person who pops into every thread about the ROTW to say the same thing, I demand that Paradox give China 150% tech rate and units equivalent to Napoleonic Squares in 1400. After all, they were better than Europe, history says so. On the same note, Japan was the world's largest gun manufacturer during the time period of the game, so their provinces should all be about as rich as the Netherlands. Since Korea beat Japan by using ironclad ships centuries ahead of Europe using the idea, they should have some sort of bonus to naval tech of say a 90% discount. Or maybe just give them a 500% strength bonus to heavy and light ships.

 

[glorioso2011]

1) Dozens if not hundreds of countries Westernised in terms of the game. Where exactly did you think every successful native polity got guns and horses from, Cherokee writing, new native governments, etc? Where exactly do you think the Ashanti Empire got their westernised troops that defeated British armies from? How about Mysore?

Actually, that's not true though, since in 1.6, you can't actually do any of these things that happened in real history, thanks to the nerf on Westernisation and the fact Paradox does not want to add any logistics to the game that make it conceivable for a middle-sized Indian power to beat the British Empire in a war. Even though that actually happened.

2) China had two wars with Europeans in the game timeframe and won both of them. By your logic and the logic of every person who pops into every thread about the ROTW to say the same thing, I demand that Paradox give China 150% tech rate and units equivalent to Napoleonic Squares in 1400. After all, they were better than Europe, history says so. On the same note, Japan was the world's largest gun manufacturer during the time period of the game, so their provinces should all be about as rich as the Netherlands. Since Korea beat Japan by using ironclad ships centuries ahead of Europe using the idea, they should have some sort of bonus to naval tech of say a 90% discount. Or maybe just give them a 500% strength bonus to heavy and light ships.

On your first point, I think that should be reflected through unit upgrades not full westernization.


On your second, I agree. Not quite to that extent, but I agree.

 

[mursolini]

1) Dozens if not hundreds of countries Westernised in terms of the game. Where exactly did you think every successful native polity got guns and horses from, Cherokee writing, new native governments, etc? Where exactly do you think the Ashanti Empire got their westernised troops that defeated British armies from? How about Mysore?

Actually, that's not true though, since in 1.6, you can't actually do any of these things that happened in real history, thanks to the nerf on Westernisation and the fact Paradox does not want to add any logistics to the game that make it conceivable for a middle-sized Indian power to beat the British Empire in a war. Even though that actually happened.

2) China had two wars with Europeans in the game timeframe and won both of them. By your logic and the logic of every person who pops into every thread about the ROTW to say the same thing, I demand that Paradox give China 150% tech rate and units equivalent to Napoleonic Squares in 1400. After all, they were better than Europe, history says so. On the same note, Japan was the world's largest gun manufacturer during the time period of the game, so their provinces should all be about as rich as the Netherlands. Since Korea beat Japan by using ironclad ships centuries ahead of Europe using the idea, they should have some sort of bonus to naval tech of say a 90% discount. Or maybe just give them a 500% strength bonus to heavy and light ships.

 

[Quantum_AI]

At the moment they can't due to:
1. Tech cost penalty
2. Monarch point generation penalty
3. Worse starting tech
4. Worse troops almost all game long
5. Worse national ideas
6. Worse bonuses and events (since Europe is so well fleshed out compared to the rest of the world, it has a tons of events which grant extra monarch points or reduce tech costs)
7. Worse religions (somewhat better since 1.5 though)

Especially the monarch point part is awful. If you expand at a decent rate you just cannot keep up in tech and ideas. Maybe, maybe, if you make a lot of sacrifices you can keep up in one direction, usually military, but even so you'll have a maximum of 2 military idea groups (I doubt they'll be full though).

Oh, and of course, there are no lucky nations outside of Europe (I need to check but I'm quite sure about this). I don't understand why Manchu (for example) isn't lucky.

I am actually ok with them dumping Westernization altogether in the next patch. It has become a fool's errand and the worst part is not the difficulty (Trade provinces everywhere!) but the fact that Westernization is not worth the investment anymore. Just remove the MP malus for Chinese/Indian, keep the tech modifiers between 20-40%, remove Westernization altogether and call it a day.

 

[durvas]

You have to keep westernization if you want to WC at all post-1.6. There simply aren't enough monarch points to do it without the protectorate spree.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Westernising needs to be overhauled, particulary for eastern nations, they shouldn't need to be 8 techs behind, maybe 4 at most. If they westernise then they are at a disadvantage compared to their western nations. Then all others should have 8-10 (depending on group). I mean, sure the Japanese were behind when they westernised, but I don't remember hearing about Russia being so unadvanced.

Eastern nations need less help with westernization than literally any other tech group that can actually do it.

I am actually ok with them dumping Westernization altogether in the next patch. It has become a fool's errand and the worst part is not the difficulty (Trade provinces everywhere!) but the fact that Westernization is not worth the investment anymore. Just remove the MP malus for Chinese/Indian, keep the tech modifiers between 20-40%, remove Westernization altogether and call it a day.

Pushing to make sub-saharan Africa and New World starts completely unplayable? Even without MP penalty, these nations can't do anything in their ludicrous tech groups that don't reflect for a second what a consolidated empire in the region might have achieved.