Understanding Research Points

[Judge]

Well the tech system is quite good. Tech trade should perhaps be toned down a bit and the lack of documentation when the game was released was of course not good.

One mystery is how clerks affect research. I don’t still get how many clerks you must have to gain a certain bonus but it seems that nobody knows this so I am in good company I guess

 

[Darkrenown]

You give me tech, I pay RP.

Should that be a no RP change one?

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Should that be a no RP change one?

Nope, if I initiate a deal where you give me tech, I pay RP for it.

Rafiki

 

[thomaha]

Nope, if I initiate a deal where you give me tech, I pay RP for it.

Rafiki

Yep and that is so excellent for multiplayer purposes! After all the frustration through the years with Masters of Orion II, Civ I,Civ II and HoI. Finnally a mechanism that stops gamebreaking tech exchange!

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Yep and that is so excellent for multiplayer purposes! After all the frustration through the years with Masters of Orion II, Civ I,Civ II and HoI. Finnally a mechanism that stops gamebreaking tech exchange!

Uhm, actually it doesn't

You can exploit by doing it in two steps:
Step 1: I propose a deal to you where I give you 5 techs for free
Step 2: You propose a deal to me where you give me 5 techs for free

That way, no-one pays RP

But if you like, we can discuss it at the party tonight

Rafiki

 

[Darkrenown]

Nope, if I initiate a deal where you give me tech, I pay RP for it.

Rafiki

Somehow I missed "(supposing deals initiated by me)". D'oh!

 

[Fawr]

Are you sure about this? My impression is that if your RP total is negative, all generated Rp is allocated to reducing the RP debt. If your current lacks RP, it is put on hold till your RP total is >= 0, but if it has all the RP it needs, it continues normally.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, I'll give an example to help show what I think.

If you have 8 RPs in the bank, and then you choose a new (10 RP) technology then all 8 points will go into that technology. If you imediatly trade to get 1 tech and thus go to -10 RPs. As you earn new RPs they will go to remove the deficit, but your research of the technolgy that you choose will continue to progress until it is 80% done, when it will stop from a lack of RPs. When you have paid off the deficit then you will be able to start puting RPs back into the technolgy you are researching, making it progress from 80%.

 

[Fawr]

Actually, the whole thing is a bit more complicated.
The first RP earned (every month) goes against your RP "debt", usually incured by tech trading.
The second RP earned (or the first RP earned, if you have no RP debt) goes to your current research.
Aything over that goes to your RP pool.
Given the most countries earn less than one RP for most of the game and between 1-2 for the rest, these things rarely show up. And when they do, you've most likely researched/traded for everything so..
If you start a new research, all RPs from the pool, up to the tech costs are used.

I did a quick test with a modified (extra clerks/clerics/$) mecklemberg in the GC and found that if you have -ve prestige then all (at least 2.3 per month) your RPs go to clearing the debt. Also if you have no debt then all your RPs went towards the technolgy until you reached the maximum amount invested. It is as "simple" as I said.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Real R&D and some ideas

In real life research and development

* Integrating a new technology takes time, the more so the less ready your people and infrastructure are for it. Even when the system is working, reaching the same level of quality takes time.

* Pioneers do the most work, followers have an easier time depending on how much they know about what the leaders have done, and have not done, and how technically ready they are to exploit the information -- the neighbor bonus in EU and the already-invented bonus in Imperialism were crude ways of reflecting this

So I think:

-> The current concept is headed in the right direction. It would make sense for technologies already invented elsewhere, particularly nearby, a long time ago, or by allies, should cost less than 10 RPs

-> It would make sense for the RP integation cost to depend on whether the recipient is already further down that tech tree branch and it is simply backfilling its technology portfolio

-> The recipient should be able to pick the order in which received technologies and other technologies are enabled in practice, so Switzerland could shelve a gift of Iron Steamers as long as it wished, not disrupting its intended research path -- could use a different color in the tech menu to indicate received techs and a number to indicate the RP cost, spent either from accumulated points when clicked if available, otherwise from ongoing research

I realize reality is of only limited relevance to the game, but these are some thoughts.

 

[thomaha]

Uhm, actually it doesn't

You can exploit by doing it in two steps:
Step 1: I propose a deal to you where I give you 5 techs for free
Step 2: You propose a deal to me where you give me 5 techs for free

That way, no-one pays RP

But if you like, we can discuss it at the party tonight

Rafiki

Well, that is as you said an exploit - probably not intended feature. I would demand a house roule in any MP game I would play against such practise anyway, as it is a certain game killer.

Good party though

 

[Belissarius]

I though it was the opposite-giving techs away is free (no rp cost) to stop giving naval organization techs to China to put it at -50 rp for no real gain.

No giving techs for free DOESNT give the recieving nation negative RP. Its designed specificly like that so you CANT do that. The only nation that incure a RP penalty is the initiating nation. when you send a diplomate to made a tech deal you are the only one the incures the penalty. So giving away techs for free means that you can give techs in mo and not get any penalty. The catch is that you take a slight risk the other player may not give you tech in return and it costs a diplomate each.

So a penalty designed to stop an exploit in MP now only hurts single player and it cant be used to deliberatly hinder other nations by giving them romantism to slow their research down. Its a useless feature in the game now.

 

[Belissarius]

/snip

The techs are the basis for inventions, so if inventions are the key, then techs are the key to the key Also, quite a few techs give advantages in themselves, even if you might not get their inventions for some time.

Rafiki

This point really doesnt present a counter to my point about how techs are not teh equivent of techs in other games. Inventions are dependant on techs this is true but iventions are times sensative so a huge tech rush in victoria doesnt have nearly the same effect as a huge tech rush in other tech based games. That being said systems and features designed to hinder tech trading are not as important in victoria as they are in other game like Civ 3.

As for house rules they have a tendancy to striaght jacket players, from non exploitive play than they have atendency from countering exploits. The ban on free trading of techs means that you limit the ability of players to buy alliances. If I'm Turkey and Prussia wants me as an ally against Austria I'm going to demand techs. but in a game with house rules banning this kind of things because of a possible exploit, I become excluded from a historical presedent. Gemany "bought" Turkeys involvement into WW1 by giving turkey technology, equipment and training.

The current system has limited the effects of trades and gifts already through the use of inventions so these things are not such a big problem as they have been in past games. The worry of tech rushes are based on past games and the current system doesnt warrent the same worry.

 

[Belissarius]

In real life research and development

* Integrating a new technology takes time, the more so the less ready your people and infrastructure are for it. Even when the system is working, reaching the same level of quality takes time.

* Pioneers do the most work, followers have an easier time depending on how much they know about what the leaders have done, and have not done, and how technically ready they are to exploit the information -- the neighbor bonus in EU and the already-invented bonus in Imperialism were crude ways of reflecting this

So I think:

-> The current concept is headed in the right direction. It would make sense for technologies already invented elsewhere, particularly nearby, a long time ago, or by allies, should cost less than 10 RPs

-> It would make sense for the RP integation cost to depend on whether the recipient is already further down that tech tree branch and it is simply backfilling its technology portfolio

-> The recipient should be able to pick the order in which received technologies and other technologies are enabled in practice, so Switzerland could shelve a gift of Iron Steamers as long as it wished, not disrupting its intended research path -- could use a different color in the tech menu to indicate received techs and a number to indicate the RP cost, spent either from accumulated points when clicked if available, otherwise from ongoing research

I realize reality is of only limited relevance to the game, but these are some thoughts.

Some things take little time to impliment especially if its not "new" technology. Turkey went from "the sick man of Europe" to a major military threat in WW1 very quickly and in the game turkey would likely have been cripled from future techs for many many years but that wasnt the case,

Most techs that are traded are techs that have been "published" especialy in the second 1/2 of the game so its not too difficult to gain the practical knowledge as your home scientists will have had access to teh papers on the subject. So techs may take time to impliments its not at least in such a way that causes your entire future technological development to stop for a year or longer as your "reseach system" catches up. You dont stop development because your learn something new. The reverse is true you accelerate develpment when you learn new things. The current system doesnt simulate this at all.

 

[Fawr]

Okay, I'm breaking down and exposing my ignorance, because this is just annoying the @$#(*&! out of me.

How do research points actually work? How do you acrue them? What happens to them, as in, how are they used? At almost all points in the game (playing as USA, nowm, in 1.02) , my little "lightbulb" indicator shows "0". Text box tells me I'm acumulating points, but they never show up. Is this because they are being used as fast as they are generated? If this is the normal case, why have an indicator for them at all?

After a few tests I have found out what the difference between 9 and 10 point research projects are.

A 9 point project requires less investment of RPs to complete ( ). So it requires less investment to get a certain % complete. For example: 0.9 RPs will get you to 10% and 4.5 will allow you to get to 50%.

A 9 point research project starts at 10% complete. This happens regardless of the RPs you start investing into it. This means that often the project will start to slip as you haven't invested the > 0.9RP needed to progress past 10%. However since filling in the whole bar takes 1 year, you can finish a 9 point project in 10 months and 24 days (10% faster). To do this requires you to have saved 0.9 RP and be earning 0.83 RP per month (or more).

 

[unmerged(2833)]

No giving techs for free DOESNT give the recieving nation negative RP. Its designed specificly like that so you CANT do that. The only nation that incure a RP penalty is the initiating nation. when you send a diplomate to made a tech deal you are the only one the incures the penalty. So giving away techs for free means that you can give techs in mo and not get any penalty. The catch is that you take a slight risk the other player may not give you tech in return and it costs a diplomate each.

So a penalty designed to stop an exploit in MP now only hurts single player and it cant be used to deliberatly hinder other nations by giving them romantism to slow their research down. Its a useless feature in the game now.

Helloooo. Reread my post please