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Artistove

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I most certainly agree with Hosokawa-dono in terms of military reform, considering that as a nation in the Pacific we are basically forced to adopt the traditions of the westerners, whether we like it or not.

- Hideki Seita, Samurai in Kanto (秀樹清田、京都のサムライ)
 
Last edited:

viola

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I believe that Hosokawa-san makes at least some good points.
The Nanban are uncivilized fools who know nothing of tradition and respect, but their weapons and ships hold an impressive amount of power.

If we could... borrow some of these ships and weapons, and combine them with the Japanese traditions and masterful skills at weapon-crafting, then I believe that the nation would be greatly strengthened by such an addition to our arsenals.
It is therefore my belief that Hosokawa-san's decision to import foreign ships should be supported, but I must also point out that the nation of Nippon should also begin to import foreign weapons and not forget the importance of our land forces.

Furthermore, I suggest the Sakoku laws to be amended so that Nanban traders may be allowed in more ports and cities as long as they agree to give a gift to the Shogunate and the Daimyos in form of their weaponry and military knowledge. This change would grant Japan greater firepower and more profitable trade.
What do the other Daimyos think of this?

- Toyama Norogumi,
Daimyo of Etchu
 

liefwarrior

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I believe that Hosokawa-san makes at least some good points.
The Nanban are uncivilized fools who know nothing of tradition and respect, but their weapons and ships hold an impressive amount of power.
It is good to see that atleast one of my fellow country men remembers that the ancestors are to be treated with utmost respect. Unfortunately, as we all well know, honor is offers little defense against the Nanban guns. It would take a mighty army indeed to humble the Celestial Empire as the foreigners have done.

If we could... borrow some of these ships and weapons, and combine them with the Japanese traditions and masterful skills at weapon-crafting, then I believe that the nation would be greatly strengthened by such an addition to our arsenals.
It is therefore my belief that Hosokawa-san's decision to import foreign ships should be supported, but I must also point out that the nation of Nippon should also begin to import foreign weapons and not forget the importance of our land forces.
The more you say the more I come to agree with your way of thinking. Clearly we Japanese can do a far better job of manufacturing these machines, it is just that the foreigners stole the ways of their creation so long ago. What you say of the importance of our armies is also true. One can not occupy a nation with ships.

Furthermore, I suggest the Sakoku laws to be amended so that Nanban traders may be allowed in more ports and cities as long as they agree to give a gift to the Shogunate and the Daimyos in form of their weaponry and military knowledge. This change would grant Japan greater firepower and more profitable trade.
What do the other Daimyos think of this?
Despite the fact that it sits ill with me that we must open more trade with the Nanban I believe that I will support the usage of imported ships and weapons. However the concessions you propose are not enough. Instead Nanban traders should only be allowed to enter the certain ports. There should be one for each region of Japan. The foreigners would only be allowed to trade within the boundaries of the port as to stop them talking to the commoners and spreading the ideas of Kyowa-shugi. Obviously the concessions of military weaponry and knowledge is essential; along with this I believe that we should allow 3 Nanban to teach the Daimyo and his retainers western military techniques/tactics. Finally, foreigners should only be allowed to trade weapons with Daimyo or the Shogun.

¬ Yoshito; 1st Lord Fureno-Shizuoka
 

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I shall once again suggest myself for the role of representing Tohuku at the Shogun's court. We have felt a broad and noble wind, and we shall rest joyfully knowing that stability and traction has been maintained.

SATAKE YOSHIHIRO,
10th Lord of Kubota


((Apparently I got unsubscribed from the thread and didn't know about any of what was happening for the past few days... :())
 

zenphoenix

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The weapons are the source of the gaijin's powers! We must learn how to build such weapons!

~Sakamoto
 

Dadarian

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I will once again be standing to be appointed to the Roju Council on behalf of the Chubu region.
 

viola

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Despite the fact that it sits ill with me that we must open more trade with the Nanban I believe that I will support the usage of imported ships and weapons. However the concessions you propose are not enough. Instead Nanban traders should only be allowed to enter the certain ports. There should be one for each region of Japan. The foreigners would only be allowed to trade within the boundaries of the port as to stop them talking to the commoners and spreading the ideas of Kyowa-shugi. Obviously the concessions of military weaponry and knowledge is essential; along with this I believe that we should allow 3 Nanban to teach the Daimyo and his retainers western military techniques/tactics. Finally, foreigners should only be allowed to trade weapons with Daimyo or the Shogun.

¬ Yoshito; 1st Lord Fureno-Shizuoka
This seems an adequate compromise.
If there are no more suggestions I believe that we may begin to work out an edict to suggest to the most honorable Shogun.

Edict to Open National Ports
((it would be great if someone found a Japanese translation for that))

I. The number of ports allowed to trade with the Nanban foreigners will be extended from the single port of Dejima in Nagasaki to one major port for each region of Nippon. Trade in these ports will fall under the surveillance of the local Daimyos or their appointed administrators.

II. Trade in these newly opened ports will be allowed only to the Nanban who accept to pay the customary gift to either the Shogun, the local Roju or the local Daimyo. Gifts must have the form of Nanban weaponry and the knowledge of how to use them. Nanban traders who attempt to trade in these ports without presenting an appropriate gift will be forcefully expelled.
IIa. Only the Daimyos, the Shogun and their authorized enforcers and Samurai are allowed to claim Nanban weaponry as their own. All peasants found in possession of unauthorized Nanban weaponry will be put to death. All Nanban traders are prohibited from selling these weapons to anyone but the Daimyos, the Shogunate and their authorized enforcers, under pain of death. All Samurai found in possession of Nanban weaponry that wasn't given to them by their lords will be dishonored and shall have their weapons seized from them.​

III. The ports opened to trade with the Nanban, in addition to the already established Dejima port in Nagasaki, are the following: Kagoshima, in the Kyushu region; Kochi, in the Shikoku region; Matsue, in the Chugoku region; Wakayama, in the Kansai region; Toyama, in the Chubu region; Edo, in the Kanto region; Sendai, in the Tohoku region.

IV. All other restrictions to the presence of Nanban within the sacred borders of Nippon remain in place. Westerners may not leave the open ports without a special authorization, and all attempts to sneak inside the country or communicate with the peasantry of the interior will be followed by harsh punishment ranging from the seizing of the Nanban's property to summary execution. Violation of Japanese law within the open ports by the Nanban will lead to similar consequences.

V. Up to three Nanban will also be allowed to serve the Daimyos as advisers and servants, should the honorable Daimyos desire so. A Nanban under the service of a Daimyo will be allowed to move and speak freely as much as his master allow him to do, but it is generally advised to limit contact between the peasantry and the Nanban.
If the honorable Daimyos believe that this edict may be improved in some way they may speak now.

- Toyama Norogumi,
Daimyo of Etchu
 

mrlifeless

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This seems an adequate compromise.
If there are no more suggestions I believe that we may begin to work out an edict to suggest to the most honorable Shogun.



If the honorable Daimyos believe that this edict may be improved in some way they may speak now.

- Toyama Norogumi,
Daimyo of Etchu
Should we not open Osaka, the most importent port in Kanasai, rather then smaller Wakayama? ((Wakayama was founded in 1889))
 

liefwarrior

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((勅令は国立港を開きます
Chokurei wa kokuritsu minato o hirakimasu
(Edict to open national harbours; ports is a nanban word)))
 

Artistove

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Should we not open Osaka, the most importent port in Kanasai, rather then smaller Wakayama? ((Wakayama was founded in 1889))
I agree with Kishiwada-san in this matter, as I believe Osaka is a much greater port than a city that doesn't even exist! But, that's the only real issue I have with this law.

- Hideki Seita, Samurai in Kanto (秀樹清田、京都のサムライ)
 

viola

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Should we not open Osaka, the most importent port in Kanasai, rather then smaller Wakayama? ((Wakayama was founded in 1889))
This is a sound suggestion, I preferred to not let the Nanban too close to the Imperial Court but I suppose that Osaka is still far enough from our most enlightened Tenno.
My only suggestion, Norogumi-san, is to grant the Shogun, Roju, or perhaps the local daimyo the right to shut such ports.

SATAKE YOSHIHIRO,
10th Lord of Kubota
A suggestion that will be promptly added, Yoshihiro-san.
Here is an updated version of the edict.



勅令は国立港を開きます
Chokurei wa kokuritsu minato o hirakimasu
Edict to Open National Harbours

I. The number of ports allowed to trade with the Nanban foreigners will be extended from the single port of Dejima in Nagasaki to one major port for each region of Nippon. Trade in these ports will fall under the surveillance of the local Daimyos or their appointed administrators.

II. Trade in these newly opened ports will be allowed only to the Nanban who accept to pay the customary gift to either the Shogun, the local Roju or the local Daimyo. Gifts must have the form of Nanban weaponry and the knowledge of how to use them. Nanban traders who attempt to trade in these ports without presenting an appropriate gift will be forcefully expelled.​
IIa. Only the Daimyos, the Shogun and their authorized enforcers and Samurai are allowed to claim Nanban weaponry as their own. All peasants found in possession of unauthorized Nanban weaponry will be put to death. All Nanban traders are prohibited from selling these weapons to anyone but the Daimyos, the Shogunate and their authorized enforcers, under pain of death. All Samurai found in possession of Nanban weaponry that wasn't given to them by their lords will be dishonored and shall have their weapons seized from them.​

III.
The ports opened to trade with the Nanban, in addition to the already established Dejima port in Nagasaki, are the following: Kagoshima, in the Kyushu region; Kochi, in the Shikoku region; Matsue, in the Chugoku region; Osaka, in the Kansai region; Toyama, in the Chubu region; Sendai, in the Tohoku region. In the Kanto region a new port city will be built in the Harbour of Yokohama, not far from the city of Edo, specifically to serve as Trade port with the Nanban. Furthermore, the rest of the port of Nagasaki will be opened to Nanban traders, in addition to the already present port of Dejima.​

IV. The local Daimyos and regional Roju may freely decide to temporarily close the ports should they believe that continued exposure to the Nanban may lead to chaos and disharmony in the close future. The Shogun will also have the power to indefinitely shut down all open ports in the nation in case of national emergency or troubles at court.

V. All other restrictions to the presence of Nanban within the sacred borders of Nippon remain in place. Westerners may not leave the open ports without a special authorization, and all attempts to sneak inside the country or communicate with the peasantry of the interior will be followed by harsh punishment ranging from the seizing of the Nanban's property to summary execution. Violation of Japanese law within the open ports by the Nanban will lead to similar consequences.

VI. Up to three Nanban will also be allowed to serve the Daimyos as advisers and servants, should the honorable Daimyos desire so. A Nanban under the service of a Daimyo will be allowed to move and speak freely as much as his master allow him to do, but it is generally advised to limit contact between the peasantry and the Nanban.

- Toyama Norogumi,
Daimyo of Etchu
 
Last edited:

LoggingOut

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I decide to run for the leadership of the Tohuku's daimyo in the imperial Roju.

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Andre Massena

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Unlike Lord Matsui, I will not sacrifice the lives of Japanese men - noble-born or otherwise - on the field of battle for no other reason but for the sake of some slavish adherence to tradition. The past few years have made plain that Japan needs more, and not less, reform of its outdated and harmful practices: such as Sakoku, and improvement in the state of the Shogun's army and navy.

Hence, I intend to stand for re-election to the position of Roju of Kyushu and pledge to campaign for the introduction of Imported ships and the introduction of both modern dockyards and shipbuilding techniques to revitalise Japan's civilian and military shipbuilding industries. I encourage all Roju candidates from Western Japan (Shikoku, Chugoku and Kansai) to do the same. If Lord Uesugi is serious about investing in our nation's port infrastructure, then I also expect to see his support for this sensible initiative as well.


-- Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and Roju of Kyushu
There is no "election". That is traitorous Nanban talk.

If we begin to import foreign weapons and open our ports Nippon will die. Mark my words.

-Matsui
 

Marschalk

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I will be standing to be appointed to the Roju Council on behalf of the Chugocu region.

- Daimyo Asano Naritaka of Hiroshima
 

Andre Massena

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VI. Up to three Nanban will also be allowed to serve the Daimyos as advisers and servants, should the honorable Daimyos desire so. A Nanban under the service of a Daimyo will be allowed to move and speak freely as much as his master allow him to do, but it is generally advised to limit contact between the peasantry and the Nanban.

- Toyama Norogumi,
Daimyo of Etchu
You want to pollute our air with Nanban odor? This is the most disgraceful edict I have ever seen.

I urge all the daimyos and the shogun to strike down this monstrosity.

-Matsui
 

LordTempest

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There is no "election". That is traitorous Nanban talk
((*yawn*))

Lord Toyama, I greatly appreciate your well thought out proposed edict to open Japan's ports to foreign trade and innovation. I do however suggest as Roju of Kyushu that all of the Nagasaki harbour, and not just the Island of Dejima, be made open to foreign trade, as it was in Ieyasu's time. I also feel that instead of opening the seat of the Shogun to foreign trade, it may be more advisable to build a new port city nearby and open that to foreign trade, such as the natural harbour near the fishing village of Yokohama?

That aside, I strongly support your measure and will happily endorse it if I'm re-elected for the elective position of Roju in the forthcoming elections to elect said elective office.

--Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and the elected holder of the elected office of Roju of Kyushu
 

viola

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You want to pollute our air with Nanban odor? This is the most disgraceful edict I have ever seen.

I urge all the daimyos and the shogun to strike down this monstrosity.

-Matsui
Feel free to not take Nanban as your servants then!

As much as I despise the Westerners it would be useful to attract some of them to show us how to use and make their weapons properly.
My proposal merely allow the Daimyos to allow these foul Westerners in to take what's useful out of them and then boot them out once they are no longer useful, I think that we can trust our peers in dealing with the Nanban in a way that that won't cause social upheaval and moral degeneracy.

((*yawn*))

Lord Toyama, I greatly appreciate your well thought out proposed edict to open Japan's ports to foreign trade and innovation. I do however suggest as Roju of Kyushu that all of the Nagasaki harbour, and not just the Island of Dejima, be made open to foreign trade, as it was in Ieyasu's time. I also feel that instead of opening the seat of the Shogun to foreign trade, it may be more advisable to build a new port city nearby and open that to foreign trade, such as the natural harbour near the fishing village of Yokohama?

That aside, I strongly support your measure and will happily endorse it if I'm re-elected for the elective position of Roju in the forthcoming elections to elect said elective office.

--Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and the elected holder of the elected office of Roju of Kyushu
I see nothing wrong in these changes, I'll apply them to the document we will propose later to the Shogun.
((and I'll just edit my previous post this time))

- Toyama Norogumi,
Daimyo of Etchu
 

Terraferma

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I will stand for Roju of Kanto once more.

((*yawn*))

Lord Toyama, I greatly appreciate your well thought out proposed edict to open Japan's ports to foreign trade and innovation. I do however suggest as Roju of Kyushu that all of the Nagasaki harbour, and not just the Island of Dejima, be made open to foreign trade, as it was in Ieyasu's time. I also feel that instead of opening the seat of the Shogun to foreign trade, it may be more advisable to build a new port city nearby and open that to foreign trade, such as the natural harbour near the fishing village of Yokohama?
As Lord of Yokohama I would be greatly interested in such a harbor, for the village and its people could benefit greatly from such an endeavor.

~ Motoro Kusenagi, Lord of Yokohama and Roju of Kanto