• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

naxhi24

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((This is the current Map of claimed provinces, excluding Revan and Viola (which I will put in soon)))
 

viola

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It is heard that Daimyo Toyama recently began to commonly frequent places known for their affiliation with the Thunder Alliance.
It is therefore likely that he decided to Join this Courtly Faction.
 

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Upon further elaboration it seems that I have accidently told the Shogun I oppose the Save the Emperor Agreement. This is false.

Old ballot
Save The Emperor: No
Hang Asahi Daika: Yes
Hang Tarou Seita: Yes

[Regional]
[Chogoku]
Save the Emperor: Yes
Hang Asahi Daika: Double Yes
Hang Tarou Seita: Double Yes

[Regional]
[Chogoku]
- Mori Takachika, Daimyo of Chosu Domain
 

liefwarrior

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I see the Lord Fureno's skill with words truly has no parallel... for he has unilaterally altered the definition of treason overnight from "one who betrays the Emperor" to "one who votes against one of his scurrilous pieces of legislation." Perhaps the real reason Lord Fureno seeks to "reform" the Government of Japan is so that he may have himself installed as Shogun?

-- Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and Roju of Kyushu


((I'd just like to point out that if we could vote on the execution of the two aforementioned traitors, my character would probably vote in favour.))
I thank you for your gracious complement Honourable Lord but I can only assume that you have gifted it to the wrong person. I am not the author of the article that has turned up in the prestigious newspaper 政治特使 but I am sure that you will be able to deliver your thanks to him in person. Why, after delivering such a compliment, you would then choose to claim that his work is treasonous is beyond the simple workings of my mind. How the passage relates to my suggested reforms of the government is clearly something only you can see; perhaps you have a fever and are hallucinating. To have myself installed as Shogun would truly be a great honour but the suggestion that I seek reform only to further my own greed is unreasonable. Perhaps if your arguments were not bloated by such insults I might actually take them seriously. I understand that perhaps it was to early to call for reform in Nippon; something I was sure you and your fellows who wish to modernise/westernise would love. It is a shameful to see that the great men of Nippon can no longer stick to their ideals no matter how poor.

~ Yoshito; 1st Lord Fureno-Shizuoka

((you can vote to execute the traitors via my Save the Emperor Agreement but instead you vote against it; why?))
 
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LordTempest

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I thank you for your gracious complement Honourable Lord but I can only assume that you have gifted it to the wrong person. I am not the author of the article that has turned up in the prestigious newspaper 政治特使 but I am sure that you will be able to deliver your thanks to him in person.

Thank you for being so forthright in admitting that you were indeed behind it. If a man dictates a letter, he hasn't technically
written it either, has he?

Why, after delivering such a compliment, you would then choose to claim that his work is treasonous is beyond the simple workings of my mind. How the passage relates to my suggested reforms of the government is clearly something only you can see; perhaps you have a fever and are hallucinating.
The Tokugawa have been shoguns for well over two centuries, and you seek to depose them by appointing a new shogun. I don't see how such an act can be seen as anything but as a treasonous act towards the Tokugawa family. Or, did you forget whom it is we Daimyo serve and owe our positions to?

I understand that perhaps it was to early to call for reform in Nippon
((You got that right.))

something I was sure you and your fellows who wish to modernise/westernise would love. It is a shameful to see that the great men of Nippon can no longer stick to their ideals no matter how poor.

How foolish of you to assume such a thing. We wish to open Japan's doors to the world for the advancement and the betterment of Japan and her people. I don't see how the deposition of the Tokugawa family will achieve this.

-- Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and Roju of Kyushu


((you can vote to execute the traitors via my Save the Emperor Agreement but instead you vote against it; why?))
As to the Lord of Shizuoka's proposals, I will oppose any law which implies that Tomoe Gozen is a traitor equal to the likes of one who wish to depose the emperor; the latter is at least high treason, the former most certainly is not.
 

LoggingOut

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I acknowledge defeat. I agree with Yoshito: our country isn't ready for reforms. But I hope that someday it will be.
 

LordTempest

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I acknowledge defeat. I agree with Yoshito: our country isn't ready for reforms. But I hope that someday it will be.
If only he had come to this sensible conclusion before setting out an ambitious plan to depose the Tokugawa and install himself as Shogun.... Pity.

-- Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and Roju of Kyushu
 

Scrapknight

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((Well...

This doesn't make any sense.
This is Feudal Japan you know? Nobody knows what Socialism is, nor they can know it because it doesn't exist yet and won't arrive to Japan for the next sixty years. "Democracy" is Ikko Ikki nonsense that grants you a one-way ticket to the chopping block, and that's it. Republicanism is synonymous with Satanism as it imply taking out the Emperor and that's not going to be well received in Feudal Japan. The Shogun, the Emperor and the Daimyos all rule by divine right, own the peasantry and there's no concept of people's right, which is an entirely western idea that has yet to be introduced to a very xenophobic Japan.
I'm hardly an expert of Japanese history during the 19th century, but I'm sure enough that any low Samurai speaking in such a manner of rights and Democracy before western ideas became more or less widespread would be considered pretty mad, branded as traitor, have his title revoked, and his head too.

I'll end the OOC now, there's already too much of it in this thread. My character will be posted soon.))
((Allow me to expound on things a bit.

He is absolutely right about socialism. Even the earliest utopian socialists in France hadn't codified what we'd understand as socialism. Some Jacobin-derived ideas were still considered by some radical intellectuals, but in 1838 nobody on Earth has codified anything we'd call 'socialism.' You can favor supporting peasants via lowering taxes or whatever, but that's not socialism.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the daimyo "owned" the peasantry but nobody is thinking of putting peasants in or anywhere near political power. Again, this wasn't common practice in Europe at this time, let alone in sakoku Japan. There were those sympathetic to the peasants, but again, sympathy towards the peasantry does not equal desiring them to have political power. Democracy was heard of by people working out of Dejima; maybe even a few intellectuals supported it. The likelihood of one of those being a samurai and getting power over a domain and publically advocating for those ideals is basically zero. Democracy isn't happening right now.

Republicanism is even more ludicrous. There have been two movements in Japanese history advocating removing the Emperor. The first were shogunate loyalists who conspired to make the Shogun a hereditary king and replace the emperor. IIRC the last time they were getting anywhere was circa 1610 during the pre-Tokugawa instability. The second is the Japanese Communist Party. Neither is accurate for 1838. It's not like republicanism is unheard of in Japan today, and the Japanese are not monolithic monarchists today (well, that's complicated, and I don't think republicanism will gain traction as a movement there, but some certainly support a republic or are lukewarm privately) - but in 1836, they basically were. You have to understand that the Shogun fills the role of a European king, not the Emperor. The Emperor is more like the pope. He hasn't held political power or anything resembling it for more than two hundred years. Nobody is getting upset about the Emperor. It just wasn't a historical point.

Point is, Viola's right - you'd certainly be executed. What I'm trying to get at is that holding these ideas in itself is pretty much unjustifyably implausible. If you did you would be amongst the most radical thinkers not just in Japan but in the world, and executed not just here but probably in France, Prussia, or Austria, and laughed out of the room at best in the UK and USA. The odds are just too absurd.

Also...you're a republican monarchist sympathizer? Tokugawa Japan or not, what does that even mean? o_O

Sorry for the OOC burst, naxhi, this stuff just gets on my nerves.))
 
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LordTempest

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((Oh Scrapknight, I never thought we'd actually agree on something pertaining to republicanism in an iAAR...))
 

LoggingOut

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If only he had come to this sensible conclusion before setting out an ambitious plan to depose the Tokugawa and install himself as Shogun.... Pity.
At least no one will say that I didn't try to change that country.

-- Takeshi Ohba, Daimyo of Yamagata
 

LordTempest

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At least no one will say that I didn't try to change that country.

-- Takeshi Ohba, Daimyo of Yamagata

My dear Lord Obha, change is change. It can be good, but it is not always so. To change for the sake of change... is to change for the sake of being remembered, rather than for the sake of bettering the lives of one's people.

-- Hosokawa-dono, Lord of Higo and Roju of Kyushu
 

naxhi24

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((Allow me to expound on things a bit.

He is absolutely right about socialism. Even the earliest utopian socialists in France hadn't codified what we'd understand as socialism. Some Jacobin-derived ideas were still considered by some radical intellectuals, but in 1838 nobody on Earth has codified anything we'd call 'socialism.' You can favor supporting peasants via lowering taxes or whatever, but that's not socialism.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the daimyo "owned" the peasantry but nobody is thinking of putting peasants in or anywhere near political power. Again, this wasn't common practice in Europe at this time, let alone in sakoku Japan. There were those sympathetic to the peasants, but again, sympathy towards the peasantry does not equal desiring them to have political power. Democracy was heard of by people working out of Dejima; maybe even a few intellectuals supported it. The likelihood of one of those being a samurai and getting power over a domain and publically advocating for those ideals is basically zero. Democracy isn't happening right now.

Republicanism is even more ludicrous. There have been two movements in Japanese history advocating removing the Emperor. The first were shogunate loyalists who conspired to make the Shogun a hereditary king and replace the emperor. IIRC the last time they were getting anywhere was circa 1610 during the pre-Tokugawa instability. The second is the Japanese Communist Party. Neither is accurate for 1838. It's not like republicanism is unheard of in Japan today, and the Japanese are not monolithic monarchists today (well, that's complicated, and I don't think republicanism will gain traction as a movement there, but some certainly support a republic or are lukewarm privately) - but in 1836, they basically were. You have to understand that the Shogun fills the role of a European king, not the Emperor. The Emperor is more like the pope. He hasn't held political power or anything resembling it for more than two hundred years. Nobody is getting upset about the Emperor. It just wasn't a historical point.

Point is, Viola's right - you'd certainly be executed. What I'm trying to get at is that holding these ideas in itself is pretty much unjustifyably implausible. If you did you would be amongst the most radical thinkers not just in Japan but in the world, and executed not just here but probably in France, Prussia, or Austria, and laughed out of the room at best in the UK and USA. The odds are just too absurd.

Also...you're a republican monarchist sympathizer? Tokugawa Japan or not, what does that even mean? o_O

Sorry for the OOC burst, naxhi, this stuff just gets on my nerves.))
((He is right guys. One thing that is very important in any historical game involving created characters is that you must act like you are living in that era. In this case, you must act like you are Japanese people in 1838, in an era in which contact with the western world is limited. I am not saying you have to be 100% historical, but republicanism NOW, dethroning what was viewed as divine, and kicking the Tokugawa out of power? That will just probably get your character killed, or worse, get you humiliated in the game (which is something you dont want, trust me). You are early 19th century Japanese, not 21st century, 20th century, or even Meji Era Japanese. Sorry, continue with the IC please :D))
 
Last edited:

LordTempest

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((Uh Naxhi, with all due respect, if you feel that way then why the hell did you put the aforementioned ahistorical proposals up for a vote? Or are you using us readers as a vehicle to enforce IC historical plausibility? :p))
 

naxhi24

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((Uh Naxhi, with all due respect, if you feel that way then why the hell did you put the aforementioned ahistorical proposals up for a vote? Or are you using us readers as a vehicle to enforce IC historical plausibility? :p))
((Because, again, I am not enforcing 100% historicity in this. Also, my job is to guide you guys, not force my will upon you just because I dont like something you are doing in-game. Anyway enough OOC, lets go back to the voting (which you have about 28 hours left to do)))
 

Dadarian

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((Uh Naxhi, with all due respect, if you feel that way then why the hell did you put the aforementioned ahistorical proposals up for a vote? Or are you using us readers as a vehicle to enforce IC historical plausibility? :p))
((1. You're not a reader, you're a player. This is a game.

2. Yes, we do most certainly browbeat our social beliefs concerning non-conformers to historical plausibility))
 

LordTempest

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You're not a reader, you're a player. This is a game.
((This is an AAR - check the fora you're in, Dada. ;)

I think its sad that people are supporting a terrible piece of legislation just because they want to execute a bunch of traitors. Can't we just have a separate vote on executing the two traitors like we wanted?))
 

Dadarian

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naxhi24

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((Alright seriously, enough with the OOC for a while please))
 

Dadarian

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Narinori 2
Tenpō 9

From where I see clear,
The hot winds bring much anger,
Causing fitfulness,
And the will to upset all.

However in peace,
I see the ancestors smile,
The traditions held,
Are what keep us together,
And protect us from ourselves.