Unconsistent uncoordinated League of Cambrai

Cat Lord · Sep 16, 2002

(I am not sure if weirdly coded events should be reported here or in the events forum. Sorry Andrew, if I am mistaken, you may have to move this thread there as well

)

In my current AAR, I spot the following sequence of events:

August 4, 1501 : Austria went with Express Support in The League of Cambrai.
August 7, 1502 : France went with Express Support in The League of Cambrai.
November 2, 1502 : Papal States went with Express Support in The League of Cambrai.
(Tuscany was no more independant).

I went and read its description in text.csv and it is the following:
"In 1508, Pope Julius II set-up a league against the Republic of Venice which he disliked and found too powerful in Italy. He enlisted support of Florence, France and even of Emperor Maximilian. French troops decimated the Venetian army at the battle of Agnadel in 1509, but the Republic managed to break the league by concluding separate peace with her opponents."

I found it weird that the events for France and Austria were fired even before the Pape called on the League. And worse, the Pape could not called the League at all (sort of "Expressing its hostility" to its own league) but still Austria and France could express their support. Also the event were not coordinated at all, and could happen before the papacy of Julius II.

So, I proposed the following for more consistency (and coordination of the events):

In text.csv:

Code:

ACTIONNAME3545C;The doge is a trustful son of our Holy Church;;;;;;;;;;10290
ACTIONNAME3545B;Venise is not that powerful;;;;;;;;;;10289
ACTIONNAME3545A;Try to set up the League;;;;;;;;;;10288

In major_pap.txt:

Code:

#League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3545
	trigger = { exists = VEN }
	random = no
	country = PAP
	name = "EVENTNAME3545"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3545"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 10 month = october year = 1503 } #Start of Julius II papacy#
	offset = 2500
	deathdate = { day = 21 month = february year = 1513 } #End of Julius II papacy#


	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3545A"		#Set up the league#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 3107 } #FRA#
		command = { type = trigger which = 3182 } #HAB#
		command = { type = trigger which = 3649 } #TUS#
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3545B"		#Ignore Venise#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -50 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3545C"		#Venise is a trusty follower of the Pope#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -150 }
	}

}

In major_fra.txt

Code:

#The League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3107				#Triggered by PAP3545#
	random = no
	country = FRA
	name = "EVENTNAME3107"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3107"
	style = 2

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3107A"	#Express Support#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = 150 }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3107B"	#Ignore#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -50 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3107C"	#Express Hostility#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -150 }
	}

}

In major_hab.txt

Code:

#The League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3182				#Triggered by PAP3545#
	random = no
	country = HAB
	name = "EVENTNAME3182"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3182"
	style = 2

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3182A"	#Express Support#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = 150 }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3182B"	#Ignore#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -50 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3182C"	#Express Hostility#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -150 }
	}

}

In major_tos.txt:

Code:

The League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3649				#Triggered by PAP3545#
	random = no
	country = TOS
	name = "EVENTNAME3649"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3649"
	style = 2

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3649A"		#Express Support#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 150 }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3649B"		#Ignore#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3649C"		#Express Hostility#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -150 }
	}

}

Cat Lord · Sep 16, 2002

Other points:

- Ferdinand V of Aragón was historically part of the league, but no event exist in the game for Spain or Aragon regarding the League of Cambrai

- I did not change the coding of Paradox, and maybe I should have. Two things are weird:

1-

If country A support the league, while country B ignore the League, still relations between A and B are improved: +150 -50 = +100

Similarly, if country A support the league, while country B express hostility to the League, still relations between A and B stay the same: +150 -150 = 0

The malus in relation seems to be not sufficient.
They should be -150 (to get 0) or -200 (to get -50) if the league is ignored, and -300 (to get -150) if country B is hostile to the league;

2-

If country A express hostility to the League, and country B express hostility to the League as well, relations between A and B are the worse: -150 -150 = -300 !

(When in reality they are kind of "allies" against the league).

There is no easy way against that, but the probability that 2 countries both express hostility to the League is hopefully very low...

Cat

AndrewT · Sep 17, 2002

I'm afraid you fall at the first hurdle. We cannot change the text.csv file at all, due to translation issues.

Cat Lord · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by AndrewT
I'm afraid you fall at the first hurdle. We cannot change the text.csv file at all, due to translation issues.

It is no big deal, we can keep the original text. It will then have the same appearance as the other: "Support the League", "Ignore the League", "Express hostility to the League". It is not as good, but still the events chronology would be better.

Cheers,

Cat

unmerged(4219) · Sep 17, 2002

Here's an idea:

Have the event occur for the papacy first (like over a one month period), and if the pope decides to not support the league, have the events for the other countries never happen.

So retime the events, and either have them triggered by the pope selecting express support, or have them cancelled by the pope not expressing support (IE: Slept).

unmerged(4219) · Sep 17, 2002

If you really feel like being a perfectionist, you can create a whole chain of events and have them started with the papacy.

That way, if the pope says yes, it will trigger the next event, and if that country says no, it will trigger a different event that will flip-flop the relations change consequences for the next countries decision (so if they say no they'll gain relations), etc...

AndrewT · Sep 18, 2002

Can't create any new events either, for the same reason.

unmerged(4219) · Sep 18, 2002

Originally posted by AndrewT
Can't create any new events either, for the same reason.

You could still use the same descriptions.

Cat Lord · Sep 18, 2002

Originally posted by YokoZar
Here's an idea:

Have the event occur for the papacy first (like over a one month period), and if the pope decides to not support the league, have the events for the other countries never happen.

So retime the events, and either have them triggered by the pope selecting express support, or have them cancelled by the pope not expressing support (IE: Slept).

That's exacty what I have written YokoZar...

Originally posted by YokoZar
Can't create any new events either, for the same reason.

Andrew,
I didn't create any new events.

In fact, as said, I just make the event happens for the papacy first, and if they choose the League, it triggers the others...

That's fairly simple, and that's far better.

Cat

Prince Eugene · Sep 19, 2002

This isn't a bug. The event is set to go off randomly between two certain dates. The odds for it happening to Papal States then Austria, France, and Tuscany immediately afterwards are very low.

Cat Lord · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by Prince Eugene
This isn't a bug. The event is set to go off randomly between two certain dates. The odds for it happening to Papal States then Austria, France, and Tuscany immediately afterwards are very low.

That's the problem.

The way these events happened is a-historical, uncoordinated, and unconsistent with the description provided with the event.

That's why I propose a minor change to make it happens to Papal States first, and eventually trigger the others. It will then be more historical, coordinated, and consistent with the description (even the current one).

Small change, good improvement.

That said, I agree that whether it is a bug or not, is open for discussion, as said in the beginning of the thread. What do you qualify as a bug for an event: Just event not working or also event badly designed ?

Cat

unmerged(9404) · Sep 19, 2002

If it will not be fixed, maybe you can send it to the EEP/AGC teams so the event at least works correctly in those mods.

unmerged(5822) · Sep 19, 2002

As long as the changes only concern "raw data", such as dates and triggers within the events rather than changes of text strings, there is little reason why they couldn't be used.

Cat Lord · Sep 19, 2002

Yep,
Onslaught, the only changes so far are:
- dates for the Papal States event, and action a (trigger the others)
- remove dates in the others as it is triggered by Papal States event (I would also advise to change the penalty towards fellow leaguers to respectively -150/-300 for action b or c in the TOS, HAB and FRA files as explained).

And I will keep the proposal to change the desc and involve Ferdinand d'Aragon for the other forum.

Cat

unmerged(5822) · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by Cat Lord
Yep,
Onslaught, the only changes so far are:
- dates for the Papal States event, and action a (trigger the others)
- remove dates in the others as it is triggered by Papal States event (I would also advise to change the penalty towards fellow leaguers to respectively -150/-300 for action b or c in the TOS, HAB and FRA files as explained).

And I will keep the proposal to change the desc and involve Ferdinand d'Aragon for the other forum.

Cat

Sounds like it should be doable within Paradox's parameters, then...

State Machine · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by Onslaught
Sounds like it should be doable within Paradox's parameters, then...

I'll leave that to Andrew's discretion. He's been packaging changes like this for Paradox.

BTW, Andrew is off for a few weeks on holiday, so we will not see much of them. Your ghost moderator is back at work, with a few "guest stars" who may make an appearance now and then.

unmerged(6159) · Sep 27, 2002

Historically there is a reason why the League of Cambrai was formed at Cambrai. Cambrai is in France right near the Belgian border - at that time it was in the Empire (Artois) right near the French border. The league was formed by France and the Empire (FRA and HAB) to try to reverse the Venetians gains in mainland Italy. Julius II joined later and gave it rather more ambitious goals. To me it's the text that's wrong not the event sequence. But I guess that can't be changed.

Aragon/Spain has been added to the league in EEP 1.2.

Of course we've all seen things like Catholic Hanover join the Catholic league, followed by Bavaria joining the Catholic league and having -100 relations with Hanover, it's fellow league member.

viper37 · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by State Machine
with a few "guest stars" who may make an appearance now and then.

that would be me

I'll leave this one open for Andrew when he comes back

Cat Lord · Jun 22, 2003

Still no incentive to coordinate the League of Cambrai ?

The event below are in line with the description of the league as in text.csv:
"In 1508, Pope Julius II set-up a league against the Republic of Venice which he disliked and found too powerful in Italy. He enlisted support of Florence, France and even of Emperor Maximilian. French troops decimated the Venetian army at the battle of Agnadel in 1509, but the Republic managed to break the league by concluding separate peace with her opponents."
even if the league was formed historically by Austria and France first and joined by the Pope later...

Bug about weird relation changes corrected.

In major_pap.txt:

Code:

[COLOR=silver]
#League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3545
	trigger = { exists = VEN }
	random = no
	country = PAP
	name = "EVENTNAME3545"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3545"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 10 month = october year = 1503 } #Start of Julius II papacy#
	offset = 2500
	deathdate = { day = 21 month = february year = 1513 } #End of Julius II papacy#


	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3545A"		#Set up the league#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 3107 } #FRA#
		command = { type = trigger which = 3182 } #HAB#
		command = { type = trigger which = 3649 } #TUS#
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3545B"		#Ignore Venise#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -150 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3545C"		#Venise is a trusty follower of the Pope#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -200 }
	}

}
[/COLOR]

In major_fra.txt

Code:

[COLOR=silver]
#The League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3107				#Triggered by PAP3545#
	random = no
	country = FRA
	name = "EVENTNAME3107"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3107"
	style = 2

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3107A"	#Express Support#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = 150 }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3107B"	#Ignore#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -150 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3107C"	#Express Hostility#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -200 }
	}

}
[/COLOR]

In major_hab.txt

Code:

[COLOR=silver]
#The League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3182				#Triggered by PAP3545#
	random = no
	country = HAB
	name = "EVENTNAME3182"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3182"
	style = 2

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3182A"	#Express Support#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = 150 }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3182B"	#Ignore#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -150 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3182C"	#Express Hostility#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = TOS value = -200 }
	}

}
[/COLOR]

In major_tos.txt:

Code:

[COLOR=silver]
The League of Cambrai#
event = {

	id = 3649				#Triggered by PAP3545#
	random = no
	country = TOS
	name = "EVENTNAME3649"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3649"
	style = 2

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3649A"		#Express Support#
		command = { type = casusbelli which = VEN value = 72 }
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 150 }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3649B"		#Ignore#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -150 }
	}

	action_c ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME3649C"		#Express Hostility#
		command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -200 }
	}

}[/COLOR]

AndrewT · Jun 22, 2003

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Historically there is a reason why the League of Cambrai was formed at Cambrai. Cambrai is in France right near the Belgian border - at that time it was in the Empire (Artois) right near the French border. The league was formed by France and the Empire (FRA and HAB) to try to reverse the Venetians gains in mainland Italy. Julius II joined later and gave it rather more ambitious goals. To me it's the text that's wrong not the event sequence. But I guess that can't be changed.

Sorry, I missed this one when I returned last year (!). In the light of the above, do we really want to change the event sequence to match the event description, rather to match than the historical situation?

Unconsistent uncoordinated League of Cambrai

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