Unam Sanctum any good in HTTT?

[bippukt]

Playing as India (Vijaynagar -> India via a self created decision), I have my 3rd decision available in 1476. I have been thinking of conquering some of the SE provinces which are heretics but have lucrative trade goods.

So, I thought that Unam Sanctum would be a nice one to have as I could attack the Heretics easily. However, the only CB available (Cleansing Heretics or something like that) is completely useless at that as it only makes it easy to convert the heretics to your religion. Not very useful IMO, unless I am missing something. Why would I waste an idea slot for it when the AI doesn't seem interested in converting its provinces to its new religion anyway. If I take over a province, I will still get 4 infamy!

Is there more to it than this or is there another way to use it?

 

[ForzaA]

As Vijayanagar, probably not.

As a Christian country.. Yes. In particular, you get to conquer provinces of your religion owned by heretics for (IIRC) 25% of the normal infamy.

 

[quetzilla]

In particular, you get to conquer provinces of your religion owned by heretics for (IIRC) 25% of the normal infamy.

That's no longer true in HttT.

 

[unmerged(128725)]

That's no longer true in HttT.

Uhm, it is if you start the war with the appropriate Casus Belli. Not if you snatch your fellow correligionaries during the 3rd English-Castillian Unification war.

 

[bippukt]

This is from the CB description PDF:

"This is the 'Unam Sanctam' Casus Belli, given against countries of a different religion within the same religion group. It is also given against countries with the 'Heretic'
modifier. One quarter the Infamy, double Prestige and half the Peace Cost for demanding provinces of our religion or a forced conversion."

So I guess that it is still true in HTTT. But since there are hardly any Hindu provinces under the control of Heretics, I guess it is useless for me. I will create another thread and ask for advice as to how to conquer SE Asia. Unless somebody kindly gives that advice here.

PS: I also noticed that only Christians and Muslims get the Holy War/Jihad CB. Fair enough, I guess, except it also makes the eastern religions much less useful in the game. Well, there is always self-modding

 

[quetzilla]

Uhm, it is if you start the war with the appropriate Casus Belli. Not if you snatch your fellow correligionaries during the 3rd English-Castillian Unification war.

The point made by the OP is for the CB given by Unam Sanctum, which does not give any BB reduction for provinces.

 

[unmerged(128725)]

The point made by the OP is for the CB given by Unam Sanctum, which does not give any BB reduction for provinces.

It does, if the provinces belong to your religion and the religion of the opponent is different.

 

[bippukt]

Guys, don't forget my question:

This is from the CB description PDF:

"This is the 'Unam Sanctam' Casus Belli, given against countries of a different religion within the same religion group. It is also given against countries with the 'Heretic'
modifier. One quarter the Infamy, double Prestige and half the Peace Cost for demanding provinces of our religion or a forced conversion."

So I guess that it is still true in HTTT. But since there are hardly any Hindu provinces under the control of Heretics, I guess it is useless for me. I will create another thread and ask for advice as to how to conquer SE Asia. Unless somebody kindly gives that advice here.

PS: I also noticed that only Christians and Muslims get the Holy War/Jihad CB. Fair enough, I guess, except it also makes the eastern religions much less useful in the game. Well, there is always self-modding

 

[unmerged(128725)]

Guys, don't forget my question:

ForzaA anwered very concisely but completely. With a couple of more words: as a hindu, you get a CB on every nation with eastern religions other than hindu (that includes Ming and Japan, by the way) or against hindu nations with the "heretic_country" modifier. But you get the reduced Infamy only when you demand hindu provinces obtained during "Unam Sanctam" wars against non-hindu nations. I am not sure wether, when you fight a hindu nation with the "heretic_country" tag, you would get the reduced infamy for demanded hindu provinces without the "heresy" tag.

 

[bippukt]

I got the point about the CB

What I was asking was: How best to go about conquering South East Asian (and even East Asian) provinces with lucrative trade goods as India (Hindu). Military is not a problem - I am western, have the largest man-power, navy and army in the whole world and very good income. Rather, it is the religious aspect that I am worried out. Those provinces are mostly Buddhist and Sunni. One option could be to take the ideas for tolerating heretics and then heathens. In that case, it would probably be best to go full innovative as I won't have enough missionaries/forces to convert and contain rebellions. Also, a Noble republic could also help with +1 tolerance of both heretics and heathens.

 

[George LeS]

I believe it also extends the CB beyond your immediate neighbors. That is, you do not have to border them, to get the Holy War CB available.

It is more useful to Christian & Moslem states, as they have heretics within their religious groups, as opposed to just infidels, outside their groups.

 

[unmerged(128725)]

I got the point about the CB

What I was asking was: How best to go about conquering South East Asian (and even East Asian) provinces with lucrative trade goods as India (Hindu). Military is not a problem - I am western, have the largest man-power, navy and army in the whole world and very good income. Rather, it is the religious aspect that I am worried out. Those provinces are mostly Buddhist and Sunni. One option could be to take the ideas for tolerating heretics and then heathens. In that case, it would probably be best to go full innovative as I won't have enough missionaries/forces to convert and contain rebellions. Also, a Noble republic could also help with +1 tolerance of both heretics and heathens.

No, in game term you want to convert them all. Tolerance does not pay - it kills your manpower and your taxes. Enacting religious tolerance is even worse, because heretic and heathen provinces start popping everywhere.

So you have to get missionaries, lots of them.
As a hindu, there is only one triggered modifer that may help you:

######################################
# Non-Catholic control of Rome.
######################################
non_catholic_rome = {
	trigger = {
		owns = 118 # Roma
		NOT = { religion = catholic }
	}
	prestige = 0.01			#1% more yearly prestige
	missionaries = 0.5
	icon = 9
}

apart from this you have to take the decisions yelding more missionaries, or better conversion chances:

	anti_christian_edict = {
		potential = {
			not = { has_country_modifier = the_anti_christian_edict }
			religion_group = eastern
			or = {
				any_neighbor_country = { religion_group = christian }
				738 = { owner = { religion_group = christian } }
				666 = { owner = { religion_group = christian } }
				668 = { owner = { religion_group = christian } }
			}
		}
		allow = {
			defender_of_faith = no
			not = { idea = humanist_tolerance }
			innovative_narrowminded = 1
			or = {
				any_neighbor_country = {
					religion_group = christian
					not = { relation = { who = this value = 0 } }
				}
				666 = {
					owner = {
						religion_group = christian
						not = { relation = { who = this value = 0 } }
					}
				}
				668 = {
					owner = {
						religion_group = christian
						not = { relation = { who = this value = 0 } }
					}
				}
				738 = {
					owner = {
						religion_group = christian
						not = { relation = { who = this value = 0 } }
					}
				}
			}

		}
		effect = {	
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "the_anti_christian_edict"
				duration = -1
			}
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
			modifier = {
				NOT = { stability = 2 }
				factor = 0
			}
			modifier = { 
				missionaries = 4
				factor = 0
			}
			modifier = { 
				NOT = { any_owned_province = { has_owner_religion = no } }
				factor = 0
			}
		}
	}

where

the_anti_christian_edict = {
	missionary_cost = -0.05
	missionaries = 0.5
	stability_cost_modifier = 0.05
	icon = 9
}

and

	anti_muslim_edict = {
		potential = {
			not = { has_country_modifier = muslim_resistance }
			religion = hinduism
			not = { any_owned_province = { religion = sunni } }
			any_neighbor_country = {
				religion_group = muslim
			}			
		}
		allow = {
			or = {
				sergeant_major_general = 3
				commandant = 3
				grand_captain = 3
			}
		}
		effect = {	
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "muslim_resistance"
				duration = -1
			}
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
			modifier = {
				missionaries = 2
				factor = 0
			}
		}
	}

where

muslim_resistance = {
	tolerance_heathen = -1
	missionaries = 0.5
	icon = 9
}

and finally

	advaita_movement = {
		potential = {
			not = { has_country_modifier = the_advaita_movement }
			not = { has_country_modifier = the_haridasa_movement }	
			religion = hinduism
			not = { idea = divine_supremacy }
		}
		allow = {
			defender_of_faith = no
			stability = 1
			adm = 5
		}
		effect = {	
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "the_advaita_movement"
				duration = -1
			}
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
			modifier = { 
				missionaries = 2
				factor = 0
			}
			modifier = { 
				NOT = { any_owned_province = { has_owner_religion = no } }
				factor = 0
			}
			modifier = { 
				revolt_percentage = 5
				factor = 0
			}
			modifier = { 
				war_exhaustion = 10
				factor = 0
			}
		}
	}

where

the_advaita_movement = {
	missionary_cost = -0.08
	missionaries = 0.5
	global_revolt_risk = 1
	icon = 9
}

 

[unmerged(7509)]

If you're that big you could just take the provinces regardless of infamy and convert them. Unam Sanctum would be good for that because it would save you many stab hits. I always convert provinces if I can afford to do so.

 

[bippukt]

Wow, Herbert! Thanks so much for that useful and exhaustive information. I am saving this thread for future reference. If only there were a way of giving you rep!

BTW, mulling over the issue some more, I went over the cb_types file and found this in the cb_heretic definition:

allowed_provinces = {
		religion = THIS
	}
	
	po_change_religion = yes
	po_demand_provinces = yes

That pretty much sums it up:

-Unam Sanctum will only help me with declaring war on the heretics. I will accrue full infamy due for taking provinces.
-There is nothing to help me attack the heathen! That's right, I can attack heretics for free but not heathen An interesting thing to note is that Unam Sanctum (or Divine Supremacy) would have helped me get a holy war CB if I were Christian or Muslim (before 1650 only).
-While historically realistic, this really restricts me. The only way I can see is to enable holy war for Hinduism as well. Then, I can easily conquer the muslim provinces and take heretic provinces for full infamy. I will take Unam Sanctum to prevent stability hits.
-I will have to try to get as many missionaries as possible. For this, I can take Divine supremacy and try to get the modifiers mentioned by Herbert. Control of Rome is out of the question, I think, but I could border a Christian country and enact the anti-Chritian edict (and anti-Muslim as well). Advaita movement is out of the question as I already have the Haridasa movement. That gives 0.5+0.5+0.5 = 1.5 missionaries.
-Should I go narrowminded to get the +1 missionaries?
-I am already fully mercantilist, so infamy won't affect trade.

Regarding the comment:
"Enacting religious tolerance is even worse, because heretic and heathen provinces start popping everywhere."

Does this apply to Eastern religions as well? If not, I can at least give the tolerance route a try.

 

[unmerged(128725)]

-Unam Sanctum will only help me with declaring war on the heretics. I will accrue full infamy due for taking provinces.

If they are NOT of your religion.

-There is nothing to help me attack the heathen!

You are sadly correct. You are a gentle, peaceful hindu, remember? Not one of those fanatical monotheists who want to paint the world in one color (blood red).

Still, Ming and Japan are heretics, not heatens for you... go east young man

Beyond the Far East, if you want to expand relatively peacefully and you are NOT a republic, then a great way is to claim thrones or fabricate claims and force personal unions. You just have to wait for the inheritance.

Otherwise, if you favour military might, imperialism is your answer. You have to get the absolute monarchy government ASAP. Not only you get a CB on everyone, but the infamy per province is reduced from 4 to 3. Not as good as other solutions, but very general and therefore applicable to your case.

-I will have to try to get as many missionaries as possible. [...]
-Should I go narrowminded to get the +1 missionaries?

I personally would not do it because being innovative is just too good. But if you already are narrowminded, then you can wait a bit longer before going innovative.

Regarding the comment:
"Enacting religious tolerance is even worse, because heretic and heathen provinces start popping everywhere."
Does this apply to Eastern religions as well? If not, I can at least give the tolerance route a try.

Oh yes it does. Try it if you want buddists, confucians and shinto (!) take over your lands... it is expecially painful if you are very innovative.

#########################################################
#		Humanistic Tolerance			#
#########################################################
province_event = {
	
	id = 6180
	trigger = {
		owner = { idea = humanist_tolerance }
		religion = hinduism
		owner = {
				religion = hinduism
		} 
	}	

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 5000
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = 0 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -1 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -2 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -3 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -4 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 2.0
			owner = { government = theocratic_government }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_neighbor_province = {
				religion = buddhism
			}
		}
	}

	title = "EVTNAME6180"
	desc = "EVTDESC6180"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA6180"
		religion = buddhism
	}
}

province_event = {
	
	id = 6181
	trigger = {
		owner = { idea = humanist_tolerance }
		religion = hinduism
		owner = {
				religion = hinduism
		}
	}	

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 5000
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = 0 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -1 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -2 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -3 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -4 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 2.0
			owner = { government = theocratic_government }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_neighbor_province = {
				religion = confucianism
			}
		}
	}

	title = "EVTNAME6181"
	desc = "EVTDESC6181"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA6181"
		religion = confucianism
	}
}

province_event = {
	
	id = 6182
	trigger = {
		owner = { idea = humanist_tolerance }
		religion = hinduism
		owner = {
				religion = hinduism
		}
	}	

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 5000
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = 0 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -1 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -2 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -3 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -4 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 2.0
			owner = { government = theocratic_government }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.95
			any_neighbor_province = {
				religion = shinto
			}
		}
	}

	title = "EVTNAME6182"
	desc = "EVTDESC6182"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA6182"
		religion = shinto
	}
}

 

[bippukt]

But I only want to live peacefully with the heretics, not the heathens. So I will take Ecumenism and leave out Humanistic Tolerance. The heathen will have to, um, be dealt with

And I think you are right about innovativen - it is too good to give up. Hmm...Hindu dharmayudha (holy war) anyone?

 

[unmerged(128725)]

But I only want to live peacefully with the heretics, not the heathens. So I will take Ecumenism and leave out Humanistic Tolerance. The heathen will have to, um, be dealt with

And I think you are right about innovativen - it is too good to give up. Hmm...Hindu dharmayudha (holy war) anyone?

Alternatively, you can try to exploit the "province defect" mechanism.

province_event = {

	id =  746
	trigger = {
		owner = {
			war_exhaustion = 15
			war = yes
			NOT = { war_score = -10 }
		}
		
		is_capital = no
		has_owner_culture = no
		garrison = 1000
		has_siege = no
		
		NOT = { controlled_by = owner }
		NOT = { controller = { tag = REB } }
		NOT = { controller = { tag = NAT } }
		NOT = { controller = { tag = PIR } }
		controller = { 
			NOT = { war_exhaustion = 5 }
		}
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 300
		modifier = {
			factor = 5.0
			owner = { luck = yes }
		}		
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			has_owner_religion = no
		}		
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			owner = { NOT = { prestige = 0 } }
		}		
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			owner = { NOT = { prestige = -0.5 } }
		}	
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			owner = { NOT = { stability = 0 } }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			owner = { badboy = 1.0 }
		}					
	}

	title = "EVTNAME746"
	desc = "EVTDESC746"
		
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA746"
		controller = { country_event = 747 }
	}
}


country_event = {

	id =  747
	is_triggered_only = yes


	title = "EVTNAME747"
	desc = "EVTDESC747"
		
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA747"
		FROM = { secede_province = THIS }
		badboy = 1
	}
	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB747"
		prestige = -0.01
	}
}

If, during a war, you occupy a province long enough, the enemy has a high war exhaustion and the province culture is not the primary culture of the enemy, the province may defect to you for 1 point of infamy, which is very good. In Persia and the Middle East cultures are rather fragmented, with the biggest exception of Persia itself. But if you ally the Timmies or some other aggressive neighbour of Persia, you should be able to break her up easily. Afterwards, you turn to the nations which got the spoils.

 

[bippukt]

Well, I decided to take the easier route and enabled the holy war CB for hinduism as well. Plus, I created a few decisions:

spread_hinduism = {
		potential = {
			religion = hinduism
			NOT = { has_country_modifier = hinduism_spreading }
		}
		allow = {
			stability = 3
			ADM = 4
		}
		effect = {	
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "hinduism_spreading"
				duration = -1
			}
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0
		}	
	}

where the modifier is:

hinduism_spreading = {	#self
	missionaries = 0.5
	global_tax_modifier = -0.03
	global_revolt_risk = 1	
	icon = 9
}

The decision:

purge_heretics_heathens = {
		potential = {
			religion = hinduism
			NOT = { has_country_modifier = hindu_purge }
		}
		allow = {
			stability = 3
			ADM = 4
			NOT = { idea = ecumenism }
			NOT = { idea = humanist_tolerance }
			OR = {
				idea = divine_supremacy
				idea = deus_vult
				defender_of_faith = yes
			}
		}
		effect = {	
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "hindu_purge"
				duration = -1
			}
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0
		}
	}

where the modifier is:

hindu_purge = {		#self
	missionaries = 0.5
	missionary_placement_chance = 0.03
	tolerance_heretic = -1
	tolerance_heathen = -2
	icon = 9
}

Also, being in the western tech group but not having colonists is a killer for the Indian tech group. Hence another decision:

india_neighbourhood_exploration = {	#so that neighbourhood can be explored
		potential = {
			tag = IND
			technology_group = western
			religion = hinduism
			NOT = { has_country_modifier = indian_exploration }	
		}
		allow = {
			idea = quest_for_the_new_world
			treasury = 200
		}
		effect = {
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "indian_exploration"
				duration = -1
			}
			treasury = -200
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0
		}
	}

where the modifier is:

indian_exploration = {	#self - to facilitate exploration
	colonists = 0.40
	icon = 11
}

I don't know if this is exploiting the system too much, but I am having fun and I can tweak the things as I wish. Any comments will be appreciated

 

[unmerged(128725)]

You basically gave hinduism the advantages of christianity. It might be a bit too much.

Two things stand out, to me.

First the hindu purge penalties should be harsher, because hinduism is not a clear-cut, read-the-book product but a large set of sometime conflicting beliefs. Any wannabe "hindu purger" would also run into a lot of "bad hindus". For this reason the decision should, at least, give you +1 revolt risk, and enable a further random event giving you a choice between heretic rebels or a stability hit.

Second, giving yourself colonists for free is preposterous. Hinduism is very traditionalistic, so not many indian ever traveled out of India. Chinese and even Buddhists did better. If your CoTs are not enough for your aims, then you need to "incentivate" hindu colonists by mean of a harsher reality at home.
I propose that you take out the "free colonists" decision and instead write a triggered modifier, giving you 0.5 colonists a year, activated if you are India and have the heretic_country tag. You can get the heretic_country tag for 5 years if you lose to or negotiate with heretics, gently provided by random event above.

This would simulate you being the follower of a very aggressive hindu sect, driving both heathens and hindu away. Secret Kali cult anyone?

 

[bippukt]

I played the game for a few years after taking the third idea QFTNW with the new decisions and modifiers. You are right - they are too much. I will load the save before taking the third idea.

-Firstly, the +0.4 colonists is too much for just exploration. Anything more than +0.15 would be an overkill. Hmm...I think I will remove it. If I want to get colonists for exploration, I must take coastal CoTs. I already have Kutch, so destroying Bihar (won't be easy to bring down the value below 300) and creating a new one in Bangala or Vanga will help. Another alternative is to lower the spread of land provinces to 25 years and just be content with it. This will also be in line with the then Hindu beliefs, as you mentioned.

-The additional missionaries must be lowered OR the penalties for the purge should be increased. The problem that I face here is that I intend to go fully innovative ie -1 missionaries. So even if I take the NI with +0.5 missionaries, I will still not get any missionaries. So I think I will have to keep the decisions and add more penalties. I am thinking of adding -1 tolerance of heathens and +1 golbal revolt risk. Or I will scrap one of the decisions and just keep one.

-Plus, my capital is in Asia itself, so I do not suffer overseas penalties. Plus, my home base is so near and is quite wealthy and has a lot of manpower. So I can bring 20-25k troop re-inforcements to places like Malacca within 2 months. It all becomes too easy.

-I will keep the Holy Jihad CB for Hindus. There is no other way I can expand - colonize or wage war. With the reduced missionaries and the not-so-easy exploration, things should get more interesting. I am not good with events and I do not wish to meddle with them, so this approach seems good.

-After finishing the game this way, I will play again from this point to the finish with a more tolerant approach, which will obviously mean less expansion.