Unacceptable AI

[Khevenhuller]

I had to ask the man himself about it, and the answer made very clear to me that I should go play other games. Here are the quotes:


Look closely to what I asked and what he answers. Podcat a) talks about stuff I specifically said are not a concern ("pleasing everyone"); b) hints that "player skills" are the problem; c) hides behind "telemetry numbers" and "people who played 1k hours" (I did not play 1k hours btw). Seeing such a dodgy answer like that demolished my trust completely. "Air revamp" that turned out to be a UI change and the DLC about the countries that people barely play.. It all fits. Podcat and his team don't deserve my trust. Nor faith. Not anymore. Doesn't mean I don't want HOI4 to be great, but these people, no, I no longer trust. Surprisingly, or, should I say, paradoxically, Stellaris team, on the other hand, earned my trust. Stellaris is not perfect but it's an actual game, not beta/early access quality hearts of generic ferrum. That's how I see it.

Yes....I was a journalist for many years and that reply would have failed to satisfy me as well. It seems to skate over your original enquiry and is significant for the questions that it leaves unanswered. I beat the AI in my first game. I am not sure I was playing particularly skilfully. It implies that they totally underestimated the skill level of their market as I am fairly sure players did not turn around and say: 'this AI is bloody tough. It is as if Manstein himself is at the helm.'

The trouble is about his answer is, if you take it at face value, then they are pulling in additional customers and cash. So why do we get the response that it is lack of resources that is the issue? Because either they are missing their goals, in which case they need to ask 'why?' If they are hitting their targets, or exceeding them, then there should be plenty of slack available to tackle things, unless the issues are far greater than they anticipated so no matter how many players they get it's never going to get sorted.

I would have appreciated a bit more on this point from our 'driver'. To push the allusion further, at the moment it feels a bit like a mystery tour that is constantly asking passengers for a whip round for petrol whilst we are assured: 'we are getting there'. My concern is, as this is a mystery tour, I am not 100% certain what the destination is, my only clues being to look out of the window.

K

 

[Krafty]

To be fair, Macagee is slightly off about how decision making works within a multi dev team studio like Paradox. Some of those things, are not Podcats decision.

Hence the corporate "protection of the whale" statements. The only reason people utter coined responses, is because they don't themselves, agree with what theyre saying, or aren't comprehensively "behind" the answer. You default to the 'coined response'. You see this in EVERY career. From office work, to building houses, to being a DJ at a night club.

That's a systemic hierarchy problem that exists in every possible job.

I don't think Podcat wakes up in the morning and thinks "Hrmm players are concerned with Air Balance and really want to set what planes/upgrades go in what air groups....LETS ONLY CHANGE THE UI MUAHAHA!! WE GOT EYYMMM"

Usually its more like "Hey I woke up and this awesome idea about how we can make the air war AMAZING!" and corporate says "As long as it doesn't cost anything, we can sell it, and you don't have to hire any one else".

 

[Katsuki126]

Hey! Show some damn respect!

He didn't showed respect in any post in this thread, neither did the post he answered to btw. There is far too much passion and anger in this thread to be honest. And far too many folks I have seen posting reasonable things around this forum who are now oversimplifying the issue.

To be clear :
1) Paradox is desperately looking for new programmers, and they have a hard time finding some.
2) One does not simply throw money and people at something so complex than AI development, a single misunderstanding between two coworkers could easily break (on a Germany build only convoys proportion) the AI.
3) Podcat has a vision for AI, that is an AI that manage to fully work in the sandbox ways the game is designed. You might or might not agree with this sandboxy direction (I do disagree), but heavily scripted AI goes into the opposite direction of what Podcat wants to achieve for the game. In other word, if you heavily script the AI, any ahistorical stuff will provoke terrible reaction and break the game.
4) Last but not least, do you remember the air war from HOI3 ? The Naval combat system-faster win all-from HOI2 ?
I think that HOI4 seems only weak in comparison to what it can be, but is not inherently bad when you compare it with its predecessors. When I realize that, I immediately changed my mind about the future of this game. I used to think that it was hopeless, I am now full of hope.

PS: Hope is cheap, anger bring nothing, remaining civil is sweet

 

[Krafty]

They cant find them because they don't pay enough and don't allow enough freedom.

Thanks Glassdoor.

That's a Wester problem. Not a Podcat problem.

 

[RELee]

Let's remember the posting rules, gentlemen. If you're in doubt, you might want to review them. It's okay to disagree, but it is not okay to disagree disrespectfully.

 

[Katsuki126]

They cant find them because they don't pay enough and don't allow enough freedom.

Thanks Glassdoor.

That's a Wester problem. Not a Podcat problem.

Usually its more like "Hey I woke up and this awesome idea about how we can make the air war AMAZING!" and corporate says "As long as it doesn't cost anything, we can sell it, and you don't have to hire any one else".

I stated just above, but I am going to do it again, that Paradox badly need, and is recruiting, programmers. They have a hard finding some though. Johan even complained about the lack of competent hirable programmers during his EU press conference.

You bring everything to money, but from.my experience, a lot of jobs offers remained unanswered in the IT because of a lack of qualified people in the field, no matter how much money you through outof the window. For such jobs, money does not solve anything. I do not know what freedom you speak about though...

 

[Krafty]

That's also true and I don't know the local market there terribly well. In the US, 9 times out of 10, its because the company isn't willing to pay people who ARE qualified, and they either start their own companies, or get an offer for what theyre actually worth and take it.

Unfortunately, money, ie "resources" is the number one driver of creation.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Paradox-Interactive-Reviews-E1008028.htm

They all share the same complaint, and the same compliments.

The people are amazing, the pay is terrible.

As ive had great experience with Glassdoor in my own business, I'm going to take these guys (and gals) word for it.

If you pay them, they will come. Especially when it appears from anecdotes, that their country is quite liberal with the work visa's. There are numerous great coders around the world who would love an opportunity but have serious monetary NEEDS rather than just desires. A lot of people who worked at Paradox appear to have done so because they loved the people they worked with and had a passion for the project. But to attract people, as Silicon Valley has found out, to get the best people, you have to pay well and you have to have a great visa system where people can come to your country and work. Theres serious brain drain on a global scale...you HAVE to have that package to compete.

If Swedish coders are finding better offers in America, or Britain, well....you have two choices. Be drained...or pay more.

Anyways this has gone waaaay off the OP. Ill be that guy. It was a great conversation none the less. Much love fellow Forumites.

 

[Khevenhuller]

I stated just above, but I am going to do it again, that Paradox badly need, and is recruiting, programmers. They have a hard finding some though. Johan even complained about the lack of competent hirable programmers during his EU press conference.

You bring everything to money, but from.my experience, a lot of jobs offers remained unanswered in the IT because of a lack of qualified people in the field, no matter how much money you through outof the window. For such jobs, money does not solve anything. I do not know what freedom you speak about though...

But I think in this case it may come down to money and Krafty is right. They have the entirety of the EU to recruit in, Sweden is a nice place to live and work and Universities and Colleges are churning out people who now have degrees specifically in gaming design, programming, art - the works. So it may come down to penny pinching in the Dilbert mould: wanting the best people at average salaries.

K

 

[Krafty]

#OfficeLife

 

[JerkyJerry]

I love the team too Krafty. I have no idea who made the business/direction plans to begin with. I'm not pointing the finger at any one person just with the process.
I'm finding it extremely difficult to believe that there are not people out there that can fix spelling errors, typos, number corrections etc. and they are impossible to hire. Putting together a team to fix and polish the game is just not out of the realm of possibilities. We've been sold that but I'm no buyer.

Is there just no way to find a single person to code: aluminum in Asia? The things I just mentioned have to take months and months (if ever) to add/correct because there is not a single person to hire? Or is it more like: in the current business plan they do take months and months and months to add/correct.
The team can have only one artist?
The team can't have a hot fix division?
The team can't reach out to the modding community and improve the base game that way?
The team can't produce a monthly patch that addresses some of the issues players have brought up in the proper forum?
The team can't hire people that work remotely?

I'm not saying it is the current day team that is the cause of my issues with the game. I'm thoroughly convinced it is the issue of the business model/plan/direction from the start that needs to be addressed and amended. I'm sure many if not all of the current team members where not in the room when the company brass was talking salaries, budgets, numbers etc. They are coders not money men/women.

I don't care about the mistakes that were made. That is the only way we learn is by making mistakes. I just think it is now time to focus solely upon D-Day, navy & air warfare. Not having D-Day is like making a MLB baseball game without a World Series.
I just can't continue to neglect the fact that D-Day happened. I've seen it in every movie, documentary, show, program etc. about WWII. I now play the game knowing it is not going to happen. That has to change IMHO.

 

[Meglok]

@Krafty back in my hiring and firing days we would look for companies with reviews such as the one Paradox has on Glassdoor and raid them for talent.

@Khevenhuller the problem with going for the quick buck is your company gets a reputation for drek and burned customers don't come back. See EA during the 2000s. They are still trying to recover from that.

I would suggest that everyone not throw 1.4 on the trash heap before we see the final results. Remember that ai fixes are usually the last thing talked about on a patch because they are still testing right up until the patch is locked.

I am seriously hoping that 1.4 knocks it out of the park in the way of performance improvement. Tomorrow's DD section on the ai will make interesting reading.

 

[Khevenhuller]

@Khevenhuller the problem with going for the quick buck is your company gets a reputation for drek and burned customers don't come back. See EA during the 2000s. They are still trying to recover from that.

Huh? Sorry I do not see how this refers to anything I posted

K

 

[Dalwin]

Why does that seem like an incredibly simple if/then coding fix Dalwin. If you haven't gotten off of toaster, the AIs first choice for PP spending, should be to get off toaster. Manpower should be if they actually need manpower and have the equipment to actually field it. How are these even bugs? How does that pass as acceptable? All Adults Serve is a niche choice and should happen rarely under extreme circumstances...

*Sigh*

Considering that improving those law (and research) choices was the main improvement made in the Expert AI mod (not counting AI cheating with several free templates), I would have to say that is seems quite doable. I am not trying to imply that the modder is not talented (is that one Chondrite?)

I know these things are not improved simply because Paradox has not committed the resources to making them better. They could easily do so but there are only so many development hours budgeted and lots of important things upon which to spend them.

 

[Dalwin]

Yes....I was a journalist for many years and that reply would have failed to satisfy me as well. It seems to skate over your original enquiry and is significant for the questions that it leaves unanswered. I beat the AI in my first game. I am not sure I was playing particularly skilfully. It implies that they totally underestimated the skill level of their market as I am fairly sure players did not turn around and say: 'this AI is bloody tough. It is as if Manstein himself is at the helm.'

The trouble is about his answer is, if you take it at face value, then they are pulling in additional customers and cash. So why do we get the response that it is lack of resources that is the issue? Because either they are missing their goals, in which case they need to ask 'why?' If they are hitting their targets, or exceeding them, then there should be plenty of slack available to tackle things, unless the issues are far greater than they anticipated so no matter how many players they get it's never going to get sorted.

I would have appreciated a bit more on this point from our 'driver'. To push the allusion further, at the moment it feels a bit like a mystery tour that is constantly asking passengers for a whip round for petrol whilst we are assured: 'we are getting there'. My concern is, as this is a mystery tour, I am not 100% certain what the destination is, my only clues being to look out of the window.

K

One thing to keep in mind as far as goals and the bottom line financially is that this game was delayed from its initial target date by well over a year. That is a lot of front end expense to recoup even if their sales have been better than expected. We are short on resources now because they were all spent before the Danzig ultimatum.

 

[Katsuki126]

That's also true and I don't know the local market there terribly well. In the US, 9 times out of 10, its because the company isn't willing to pay people who ARE qualified, and they either start their own companies, or get an offer for what theyre actually worth and take it.

Unfortunately, money, ie "resources" is the number one driver of creation.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Paradox-Interactive-Reviews-E1008028.htm

They all share the same complaint, and the same compliments.

The people are amazing, the pay is terrible.

As ive had great experience with Glassdoor in my own business, I'm going to take these guys (and gals) word for it.

If you pay them, they will come. Especially when it appears from anecdotes, that their country is quite liberal with the work visa's. There are numerous great coders around the world who would love an opportunity but have serious monetary NEEDS rather than just desires. A lot of people who worked at Paradox appear to have done so because they loved the people they worked with and had a passion for the project. But to attract people, as Silicon Valley has found out, to get the best people, you have to pay well and you have to have a great visa system where people can come to your country and work. Theres serious brain drain on a global scale...you HAVE to have that package to compete.

If Swedish coders are finding better offers in America, or Britain, well....you have two choices. Be drained...or pay more.

Anyways this has gone waaaay off the OP. Ill be that guy. It was a great conversation none the less. Much love fellow Forumites.

Honestly, should I see such review in my field, I would immediately apply to a job.
It is worth noting that, should Paradox decide to raise wage (and I honestly doubt it will do much) they have to raise wages for the entire company, and this could be above their own budget. There is a lot of things we do no know about this, so we should refrain from emitting supposition in the dark.

And yeah, it is out of topic.
To answer to OP, this problem was not here since launch and appeared and disappeared throughout the patches. It is a bug and as every bug, it can return after an unimportant fix to an unrelated part of the game.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Honestly, I am with Meglok on this one. Should I see such review in my field, I would immediately apply to a job.
It is worth noting that, should Paradox decide to raise wage (and I honestly doubt it will do much) they have to raise wages for the entire company, and this could be above their own budget. There is a lot of things we do no know about this, so we should refrain from emitting supposition in the dark.

You do realize that despite saying you're "with Meglok on this one," you go on to say the exact opposite of what s/he said, right?

 

[Khevenhuller]

One thing to keep in mind as far as goals and the bottom line financially is that this game was delayed from its initial target date by well over a year. That is a lot of front end expense to recoup even if their sales have been better than expected. We are short on resources now because they were all spent before the Danzig ultimatum.

I would assume, then, that such a situation meant a revisit to the business model as related to HOI4 and either an upward expectation of sales needed in order to get into the black or the acceptance of a cold bath. I am assuming also that, as we are still 'in the game' of development, PDX is still hoping for, or has achieved by a slender margin, the first part.

The worrying bit is if it does become a vicious circle: low profit margins leading to low investment leading to falling sales and waning interest. At which point to you try to break that cycle? If PDX cannot really find people, and have no money to throw at it by hiring someone at a higher rate (just fudge the job title for pity's sake) then I am not sure where this is going.

1.4 really, really needs to succeed and the game stand on it's own merits, not on the faith of die hards.

K

 

[Katsuki126]

You do realize that despite saying you're "with Meglok on this one," you go on to say the exact opposite of what s/he said, right?

I re-read three or four times the post before realizing that I misunderstood it (in particular the expression "raid for talent"). I am editing my post accordingly, thanks for pointing that out

 

[Chengar Qordath]

1.4 really, really needs to succeed and the game stand on it's own merits, not on the faith of die hards.

Indeed. I've been with the HoI series for a long time, but decided to wait on getting 4 until they worked out the worst of the launch bugs. I've been waiting for a year, and by all indications the waiting won't be over soon.

 

[thexmassteam]

OP's issue happen to me too often
I wish a better AI, but now that the game is on sale, the hardware requirement will not change. And a better AI, at some point, need more "If", more "For", more everything. And all this take time to compute. So, I'm not so confident about a real better AI. We probably can have some major problem like the OP had solved, and it'll be a real improvment. But what we want in fact is something they probably can't give us : some kind of strategic decisions take by AI and apply on ground.
That said, I hope I'm wrong.