Unable to achieve naval supremacy even though my ships on patrol mission

[atm]

Hello fellow players, I am having game of Netherlands, I conquered France, Italy and Naval invaded Denmark and Sweden with Norway and all was working good. I decided to take steps into Mediterranean and secured Gibraltar and Ceuta. Placed my fleet in Italy but now I can't achieve supremacy, to be precise I have numbers for supremacy and ships deployed on patrol as well as strike mission but game still throws warning that we know too little about region.

Region is covered with ~ 1k planes, 2 radars and one fleet on patrol, one on convoy hunt and last one with multiple Carriers on Strike Mission so I am sure I have enough. Now question is what is happening? Screen below:

 

[Udinean Yoghurt Dessert]

Hello fellow players, I am having game of Netherlands, I conquered France, Italy and Naval invaded Denmark and Sweden with Norway and all was working good. I decided to take steps into Mediterranean and secured Gibraltar and Ceuta. Placed my fleet in Italy but now I can't achieve supremacy, to be precise I have numbers for supremacy and ships deployed on patrol as well as strike mission but game still throws warning that we know too little about region.

Region is covered with ~ 1k planes, 2 radars and one fleet on patrol, one on convoy hunt and last one with multiple Carriers on Strike Mission so I am sure I have enough. Now question is what is happening? Screen below:

View attachment 552399

Click on that region, check out enemy's ship presence.
-Patrol task forces only patrol one sea region at a time AND the fleet tries to distribute its patrol task forces equally; meanning that only one of them is being taken into consideration in this case (Under the patrol mission icon there's a counter of PATROLS_IN_REGION/PATROLS_WITH_REGION_ASIGNED)
-Strike forces do not count towards a region's naval superiority, only active missions are taken into consideration.
Naval superiority status is EXCLUSIVELY a numbers game, so have cheap destroyers on convoy escort

 

[youngtuna]

If your patrol fleet is on "do not engage" they don't contribute to naval supremacy.

 

[cnwi]

Click on that region, check out enemy's ship presence.
-Patrol task forces only patrol one sea region at a time AND the fleet tries to distribute its patrol task forces equally; meanning that only one of them is being taken into consideration in this case (Under the patrol mission icon there's a counter of PATROLS_IN_REGION/PATROLS_WITH_REGION_ASIGNED)
-Strike forces do not count towards a region's naval superiority, only active missions are taken into consideration.
Naval superiority status is EXCLUSIVELY a numbers game, so have cheap destroyers on convoy escort

no fully true;
* strike force provide naval superiority even if they're not physically in the sea area, as long as they're within reasonable distance (it's indicated if it's not the case)
* each ship used to provide the same amount of superiority in early MTG, but that's not the case anymore; bigger ships provide more superiority

 

[TheMeInTeam]

* strike force provide naval superiority even if they're not physically in the sea area, as long as they're within reasonable distance (it's indicated if it's not the case)

This is true and it's a serious problem, because it allows ships in port to somehow magically deny superiority and naval invasions from ships that are not in port. Which is ridiculous. Unless they are actually willing to leave port, a docked ships exert roughly as much "naval superiority" as tanks.

 

[Zauberelefant]

This is true and it's a serious problem, because it allows ships in port to somehow magically deny superiority and naval invasions from ships that are not in port. Which is ridiculous. Unless they are actually willing to leave port, a docked ships exert roughly as much "naval superiority" as tanks.

The home fleet did prevent sealion that way. Because the Kriegsmarine wouldn't even try.

 

[Reman]

The home fleet did prevent sealion that way. Because the Kriegsmarine wouldn't even try.

It only prevented Sea Lion by being a credible threat. In HoI4, the Home Fleet still projects naval superiority even if it's too far away to arrive in time to stop an invasion, e.g. if it's chilling in Orkney or Scotland. Even worse, the default behavior of strike force is not to challenge naval invasions at all, even if they do happen.

 

[Zauberelefant]

It only prevented Sea Lion by being a credible threat. In HoI4, the Home Fleet still projects naval superiority even if it's too far away to arrive in time to stop an invasion, e.g. if it's chilling in Orkney or Scotland. Even worse, the default behavior of strike force is not to challenge naval invasions at all, even if they do happen.

That is another, but distinct problem. Ships in port can and should exert naval supremacy, IF in distance.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The home fleet did prevent sealion that way. Because the Kriegsmarine wouldn't even try.

Doesn't model the in-game scenario in the slightest.

Germany didn't put surface vessels in the channel uncontested for months. In the game, that BS in port is still a credible threat even if they do.

 

[Eisscrat]

Had the same Problem.

Want to invade Egypt but somewhere the US Navy were in a port. I have to go over turkey then and that flesh the fleets out and the get sunk by the Kriegsmarine and the Bombers.

 

[valisk]

Hello fellow players, I am having game of Netherlands, I conquered France, Italy and Naval invaded Denmark and Sweden with Norway and all was working good. I decided to take steps into Mediterranean and secured Gibraltar and Ceuta. Placed my fleet in Italy but now I can't achieve supremacy, to be precise I have numbers for supremacy and ships deployed on patrol as well as strike mission but game still throws warning that we know too little about region.

Region is covered with ~ 1k planes, 2 radars and one fleet on patrol, one on convoy hunt and last one with multiple Carriers on Strike Mission so I am sure I have enough. Now question is what is happening? Screen below:

View attachment 552399

no fully true;
* strike force provide naval superiority even if they're not physically in the sea area, as long as they're within reasonable distance (it's indicated if it's not the case)
* each ship used to provide the same amount of superiority in early MTG, but that's not the case anymore; bigger ships provide more superiority

Exactly this ^

It doesn't check to see if they have any fuel though and adjust their score accordingly, Japan kept me from invading the Mariana region (despite having no convoys for over a year) and a tiny dribble of fuel from a synthetic plant which was enough to power their annoying naval bombers.
Finally their fleet left port, trying to fight my unsupported battlecruisers that were deliberately patroling near Kyushu and they lost a carrier, before meeting ABC bringing the main Royal Navy battlefleet and the Fat lady finally sang. Game over Japan, now you have no Islands left.

ed. Should probably mention I had 800+ mines laid in all the sea regions around Japan by that point, which probably didn't help their cause one bit.

 

[JonS]

... too far away to arrive in time to stop an invasion, e.g. if it's chilling in Orkney or Scotland.

That’s a very, uh, iconoclastic take on the role of the RN in relation to SEALION. It’s true that crossing the Channel would have only taken that hopeless collection of unpowered barges about 12 hours, which probably wouldn’t have been enough time for the fleet up at Scapa to sortie and sail down to the Channel in time for the first wave to get across and land. As long as the Admiralty completely ignored all the intel they were receiving. And as along as all the destroyer flotillas sportingly ignore those juicy targets too.

So, sure, maybe the first wave gets across unscathed. Maybe.

But the thing about invasions is that they are very much NOT a one-and-done operation. You need multiple waves, and multiple follow ups, then even more follow ups to bring over supplies, then a constant flow of ships to bring yet more supplies. Otherwise SEALION shrivels up and dies like one of those forlorn sealions in the Dry Valleys in Antarctica.

And even our putatively incompetent RN would probably notice there was an invasion going on after a couple of days, and they’d probably be able to get at least a few ships down, even from Scapa, to mess with the follow on waves and supply convoys. And at that point the jig is up.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24448346?seq=1

And yes; I get that history is not the game and the game is not history. However, it is wrong to assert that a fleet is "too far away" when - in the case of SEALION - you're only talking about a few hours steaming. Multiple zones, yes, but still only a few hours.

 

[Boozdeuvash]

Guys, it's called Fleet-in-Being, and it's a very real (and allegedly effective) method of forcing the ennemy to mobilize their naval forces to counter a threat that may never ever leave port. The German High Sea Fleet did it in WWI, and the Kriegsmarine again during WWII with their capital ships hiding here and there in Norway attacking convoys and stuff.

If you have naval bombers, get air superiority and then port strike their asses to the bottom of the harbor. Bonus point if you have strategic bombers to target their ports and Flak, which makes it all more effective.

What should be possible though, it to force a Naval invasion through a 25-50% controlled naval region, albeit with penalties to positioning if your invasion fleet gets intercepted.

 

[Akela]

Historically the Home Fleet literally was "chilling in Orkney or Scotland" (at Scapa Flow, precisely) for most of the war, and yet for some reason the Germans still declined to launch Sealion.

As I understand it, the analysis of the Admiralty at the time was pretty much exactly what @JonS laid out above. If they were willing to try, the Germans would succeed in landing a first wave, but the Royal Navy would get there in time to cut off the second wave (including any heavy equipment) and that any troops on land would be unable to break out of their immediate foothold on the beaches and inevitably surrender when their supplies ran out.

Basically, in game terms, they could have launched the invasion, but the troops would have been taking full 'out of supply' penalties (and probably 'encircled' and maximum 'shore bombardment') before they'd even (fully) occupied a single province. The chances of a successful invasion under those circumstances are functionally zero, so it makes sense for the game to block the order - that's arguably what the German military commanders actually did historically whenever Hitler brought up Sealion.



There is currently a loophole where the task force can project 'naval superiority' even if it's mechanically impossible for it to sortie, though, and that should probably be closed. (Put a task force on 'Strike Force' and remove all other fleets from the zone. The task force will now join any battles in the seazone - except there will never be a battle because there are no friendly ships present to fight in it, so they'll just sit in port forever, happily projecting naval superiority at zero risk to themselves.)

Under current mechanics I guess that would mean 'must have at least one ship physically present in the zone', although I'd personally like to see radar and aircraft be able to call in a strike force on their own, rather than only ever being a bonus to finding things with ships. In that case, a minimum naval detection score would make more sense than a ship requirement.

 

[Xeonic]

The only good solution to this problem in my opinion is to remove the arbitrary 50% naval supremacy requirement to launch naval invasions. Let us determine ourselves if we want to launch stupid invasions and get caught by a huge home fleet.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That’s a very, uh, iconoclastic take on the role of the RN in relation to SEALION. It’s true that crossing the Channel would have only taken that hopeless collection of unpowered barges about 12 hours, which probably wouldn’t have been enough time for the fleet up at Scapa to sortie and sail down to the Channel in time for the first wave to get across and land. As long as the Admiralty completely ignored all the intel they were receiving. And as along as all the destroyer flotillas sportingly ignore those juicy targets too.

So, sure, maybe the first wave gets across unscathed. Maybe.

But the thing about invasions is that they are very much NOT a one-and-done operation. You need multiple waves, and multiple follow ups, then even more follow ups to bring over supplies, then a constant flow of ships to bring yet more supplies. Otherwise SEALION shrivels up and dies like one of those forlorn sealions in the Dry Valleys in Antarctica.

And even our putatively incompetent RN would probably notice there was an invasion going on after a couple of days, and they’d probably be able to get at least a few ships down, even from Scapa, to mess with the follow on waves and supply convoys. And at that point the jig is up.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24448346?seq=1

And yes; I get that history is not the game and the game is not history. However, it is wrong to assert that a fleet is "too far away" when - in the case of SEALION - you're only talking about a few hours steaming. Multiple zones, yes, but still only a few hours.

The game already has a means to model convoys being intercepted and ruining supply. It doesn't need artificial magic force fields emitted by ships that literally have done nothing in the past year.

 

[atm]

Ok so I did some more detailed analysis and naval supremacy works fine but intel is issue...even though I have in region 65 ships and half are active in given region on missions as well as 1k planes it tells me I have only 25.5% of naval intel... region next to it with 0 ships and 0 planes have 100% intel....what the hell...so how can I get intel if not by ships on mission and planes on missions?

Thanks for any explanation, I believe it is bug in those zones?

 

[Reman]

The game already has a means to model convoys being intercepted and ruining supply. It doesn't need artificial magic force fields emitted by ships that literally have done nothing in the past year.

Bingo.

Here's what happens in a typical Germany game:

1. Shred the RAF, achieving total air supremacy in the Channel and Southern England by 1940.
2. Launch naval bombers to obliterate all ships in the Channel.
3. The Home Fleet gets damaged and runs away up north, but still stays on Strike Force.
4. Prepare naval invasion of England.
5. Launch naval invasion... but wait, that's not possible because Strike Force from the Home Fleet is still active.
6. Bait the Home Fleet to come within range of naval bombers where they'll be shredded in minutes... but wait, that's not possible either because Strike Force doesn't respond to enemy fleets patrolling in regions where they're assigned.
7. Give up on disabling the force field from the Home Fleet and just dump 600 prewar submarines in the Channel to overpower it instead through an equally magical mechanic: naval mines.

Of course there are tons of ways to circumvent this system through exploits (e.g. paratroopers, convoy shenanigans, prewar rushing, etc.) but people who want to play without exploits will be met with frustration.

 

[atm]

Hello guys, any idea why I cant get intel on zone in printscreen?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Historically the Home Fleet literally was "chilling in Orkney or Scotland" (at Scapa Flow, precisely) for most of the war, and yet for some reason the Germans still declined to launch Sealion.

As I understand it, the analysis of the Admiralty at the time was pretty much exactly what @JonS laid out above. If they were willing to try, the Germans would succeed in landing a first wave, but the Royal Navy would get there in time to cut off the second wave (including any heavy equipment) and that any troops on land would be unable to break out of their immediate foothold on the beaches and inevitably surrender when their supplies ran out.

The Germans were not patrolling the English Channel with impunity, so this is not a reasonable refutation to OP's complaint. If the UK actually failed to challenge hostile actions in the channel in history it's nonsense to claim that their "superiority" would somehow block a full scale invasion.

The problem in the game is that "strike force" does not have to contest more advanced fleets in order to block naval action. In your historical example, Germany did not believe it could win the naval engagement and continue supplying its soldiers. In HOI 4, there are situations where the player *does* believe this, is accurate in that assessment...yet still can't naval invade due to "superiority". Citing the actual historical scenario is not and can't be a valid refutation for that.

If the Kriegsmarine thinks it's strong enough to go looking for trouble, and the Royal Navy agrees by refusing to answer, the Royal Navy does not reasonably have superiority.

The only good solution to this problem in my opinion is to remove the arbitrary 50% naval supremacy requirement to launch naval invasions. Let us determine ourselves if we want to launch stupid invasions and get caught by a huge home fleet.

This is by far the least arbitrary solution. The whole thing stops being a problem if it's fixed this way.