un-upgradable units

[Mabs]

mainly, this is navy stuff, but not sure if it affects anything else.

the stats that are black rather than yellow/orange, and you cant improve, usually hull,engine, armour, etc... you need to tech them up and then build a new boat.

now i can understand the theory behind this.. but then if you upgrade a tank regiment from tank A to tank B, surely that would take just as much time/metal/manpower/etc as making a new destroyer ? (ok not exactly, but you get the point)

its one of the things that annoys me with naval units, having to replace rather than update them.

why is it like this ? i dont understand the purpose ?

is it something that is already modded somewhere to make them upgrade EVERY component?

if not , could anyone point me in the rough direction and i shall go poke it

ta for any help

 

[Insentient]

It wouldn't be realistic to make 1941 sub a nuclear sub just because you researched nuclear powered engines or replacing a battleship armor when you have increased the armor a few mms. It's a realism thing.

 

[unmerged(176592)]

you can do simple modification if you want to upgrade our units in the file :

\technologies\Naval Technologies.txt

Modify what kind of unit with "can upgrade = yes" instead of "no"]

(exemple for light cruiser)

lightcruiser_armament = {
light_cruiser = {
 sea_attack = 0.5
 convoy_attack = 0.5
}

allow = {
 lightcruiser_technology = 1
}


research_bonus_from = {
 naval_engineering = 0.3
 cruiser_practical = 0.6
 base_strike_doctrine = 0.1
}

on_completion = naval_engineering
difficulty = 1
start_year = 1918
first_offset = 1934 #2nd model is from 1936
additional_offset = 2 #one new every 2 year
folder = smallship_folder
can_upgrade = no

 

[Mabs]

It wouldn't be realistic to make 1941 sub a nuclear sub just because you researched nuclear powered engines or replacing a battleship armor when you have increased the armor a few mms. It's a realism thing.

you also cant change a tiger into a king tiger ... you build a replacement, yet you can upgrade them ingame

thats my point

Olivanto- thanks for that, ill go poke it now

 

[Malikovski]

Am I reading that code right that each component can be set to upgradeable or not?

It would not be realistic to upgrade the hull of your battleship or the engine (without years in dry dock anyway), but it would be realistic to upgrade the AA compliment, add radar, use newer torpedoes, et c.

I know many capital ships had their AA capabilities massively upgraded during the war, and I would assume radar and other items like that were added.

 

[King]

Firstly it is better than the HoI2 system were I ship was built and that was it now ships will get better. A tank division would be requipped with upgraded tanks during the war. The HMS Revenge however did not suddenly turn into the King George V class battleship late on in the war, it was actually scrapped to free up manpower. However f you don't like this well the files are modable, we made these decisions because they felt right to us.

 

[unmerged(132146)]

the reason is when a tank brigade upgrades irl, the old tanks are taken away from the brigade and new ones are put in.

but you don't take the ship away from its crew and give them a new one.

a brigade is really much more than just its hardware. for a ship this is still true, but much less so.

 

[unmerged(163195)]

IIRC the game doesn't allow upgrading the main armaments of a capital ship and thats historically incorrect.

On 01.07.1943: Gneisenau (German flagship) was withdrawn from service. The 28 cm (11") triple turrets should be replaced with 38 cm (15") twin turrets. After the sinking of the Scharnhorst , conversion work is stopped.

Source: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/battleships/gneisenau/operatrions.html

Also, Bismarck's edge over British BBs was that it was much faster and thats why it was possible to use it as a convoy raider so it could strike and then disengage and escape easily due to its vastly greater speed. And the ship was laid down on 01.07.1936. Whereas the BB engine techs in that amount of time in game allows for a 20 kmph (and not 20 knots IIRC) speed for a BB.

Total Performance: 150170 shp
Speed: 30,1 kn (~58 kmph)
Range: 8100 miles at 16 kn, 3740 miles at 30 kn

Source: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/battleships/bismarck/tech.html

I may not be totally correct in my findings but I have to agree that such small details make a vast difference in your planning the strategy that you intend to adopt and therefore design your naval, air and land forces around those specifications. In game, and this is the most important part, it means that one has to inevitably wait for superior techs to be researched before ordering a capital ship for example and that much time and IC has to be spent elsewhere.

 

[King]

IIRC the game doesn't allow upgrading the main armaments of a capital ship and thats historically incorrect.



Source: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/battleships/gneisenau/operatrions.html

Also, Bismarck's edge over British BBs was that it was much faster and thats why it was possible to use it as a convoy raider so it could strike and then disengage and escape easily due to its vastly greater speed. And the ship was laid down on 01.07.1936. Whereas the BB engine techs in that amount of time in game allows for a 20 kmph (and not 20 knots IIRC) speed for a BB.



Source: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/battleships/bismarck/tech.html

I may not be totally correct in my findings but I have to agree that such small details make a vast difference in your planning the strategy that you intend to adopt and therefore design your naval, air and land forces around those specifications.

Well look if you managed to read my original post the deicison was based upon what felt right to us. Using the example of a single ship that was never upgraded to justify the upgrade of every other battleship and battlecruiser in the game that were never upgraded still does not feel right.

 

[IronmanV2]

You are not upgrading a Tiger to a King Tiger... instead, you are upgrading the brigade's (both land and air) equipment which would involve swapping out the old equipment for the new.

 

[unmerged(132146)]

as well as being upgunned, ships were also converted from battlecruisers to carriers, and then the spare guns used on new ships. but like gun replacement it wasn't very common.

aa upgrading was very common

 

[pwncake111]

Firstly it is better than the HoI2 system were I ship was built and that was it now ships will get better. A tank division would be requipped with upgraded tanks during the war. The HMS Revenge however did not suddenly turn into the King George V class battleship late on in the war, it was actually scrapped to free up manpower. However f you don't like this well the files are modable, we made these decisions because they felt right to us.

Hi King, i understand the ship issue but what is not right IRL is panzer divisions. I always thought and read that panzer divisions which where upgraded always had to go back to there training complexes to learn the new improvements etc... Normaly i took 3 months to learn the new tanks. Why is it still not implemented in the game. Just an example. I wanted to update 1 panzer division from panzer 3 to panzer 4. I select update then automaticly the panzer division goes away from the frontline and after 3months i can see them in Berlin (upgraded). This is what happend IRL too. So you wont upgrade all your divisions at the same time because then all your fronts will be empty. This way you give the gamer the option to upgrade with the change to have not enough troops at your front but later more powerful tanks or keep your front with old panzers.

 

[General War]

I think that the current system is just fine. There were some upgrades to the ships, but it wasn't that common. A lot of ships were converted during the construction (i.e. heavy cruiser into carriers).

Only thing that I find very strange is that a sub cannot "upgrade" torpedoes and AA guns. At least that was in 1.2

 

[TheLoneGunman]

Hi King, i understand the ship issue but what is not right IRL is panzer divisions. I always thought and read that panzer divisions which where upgraded always had to go back to there training complexes to learn the new improvements etc... Normaly i took 3 months to learn the new tanks. Why is it still not implemented in the game. Just an example. I wanted to update 1 panzer division from panzer 3 to panzer 4. I select update then automaticly the panzer division goes away from the frontline and after 3months i can see them in Berlin (upgraded). This is what happend IRL too. So you wont upgrade all your divisions at the same time because then all your fronts will be empty. This way you give the gamer the option to upgrade with the change to have not enough troops at your front but later more powerful tanks or keep your front with old panzers.

I think because this would make the game a micromanagement nightmare.

Imagine having to select every division you wish to upgrade and having it sent back to Berlin individually.

Or imagine trying to run a war agains tthe Soviet Union while the upgrade ai is randomly plucking units away from your front forcing you to fill the gaps.

Not only that, but then what about infantry units? Do they need to go back to Berlin to learn how to shoot a new rifle or use a new grenade? Where do we draw the line?

Not trying to bash your idea, it's just far too complex for the game. You could say that the time and cost of upgrading are already taking into account the training of fresh troops with new equipment such as your new Tiger tanks, and that these are sent to the front, while the older models and their crews get sent back to Berlin for some R&R.

 

[TheLoneGunman]

I think that the current system is just fine. There were some upgrades to the ships, but it wasn't that common. A lot of ships were converted during the construction (i.e. heavy cruiser into carriers).

Only thing that I find very strange is that a sub cannot "upgrade" torpedoes and AA guns. At least that was in 1.2

Agreed, that is strange.

My only other gripe is that you can't upgrade a ship's main armament. Historically it did occur, but usually took a year at minimum to do. Not sure if this could be properly represented in-game however.

Edit: And it's good to see you posting in these forums again King!

 

[Lauri]

You swap old tanks for new, just like you swap old weapons for new.. (K98 to MP40) Also planes
That's harder to do with ships, and if you could upgrade them with everything, you wouldn't have to focus to much on the navy research, because you could just build level 1 ships and upgrade them before the war..

 

[King]

Hi King, i understand the ship issue but what is not right IRL is panzer divisions. I always thought and read that panzer divisions which where upgraded always had to go back to there training complexes to learn the new improvements etc... Normaly i took 3 months to learn the new tanks. Why is it still not implemented in the game. Just an example. I wanted to update 1 panzer division from panzer 3 to panzer 4. I select update then automaticly the panzer division goes away from the frontline and after 3months i can see them in Berlin (upgraded). This is what happend IRL too. So you wont upgrade all your divisions at the same time because then all your fronts will be empty. This way you give the gamer the option to upgrade with the change to have not enough troops at your front but later more powerful tanks or keep your front with old panzers.

That was in HoI and it was micro nightmare, so yes the system abstracts and is not perfect but we aimed for feeling rather than other stuff.

 

[King]

Edit: And it's good to see you posting in these forums again King!

Well I have been a bit busy with Victoria 2 and HoI3 patch testing, but today I am doing a constant compile/recompile verifiing fixes from the Beta patch. So I have time to post a bit more.

 

[TZoli]

About battleships there should be a maximum level a shipclass's equipment can be upgraded on it. I doubt You can put the 40.6cm SK C/34 or the 50.8cm Gerät 36 (not to mention the prototype 53cm Gerät 36 )cannons which would be the main armament of the H39 and H44 Battleships to the Deutschland class Schleswig-Holstein. I think this is good that only the AA Radar etc could be upgraded

 

[domanb]

Vicky 2! Oh baby!