Umh so I think I broke the game...

[Victor Creed]

Um, Luckmann, don't say Baldur's gate, if you actually mean Baldur's Gate 2.
In Baldur's Gate there's only weakling enemies before you enter Act 2, you don't have any freedom to move around and if you solo and abuse the basilisks and Durlag's towers exterior you are actually max level when you enter Act 2.

Besides without mods the difficulty in those games is hilariously lo and not even comparable to Tyranny.

 

[GreatAlucard]

I don't know what the hell you're doing to make Tyranny even remotely hard to be honest.

Besides, while some examples might not work, most of them hold ground (of the ones Luckman listed)... Also it is pretty common sense that level scaling is a crutch, I'm surprised this subject lasted this far, honestly.

 

[Victor Creed]

I don't know what the hell you're doing to make Tyranny even remotely hard to be honest.

Besides, while some examples might not work, most of them hold ground (of the ones Luckman listed)... Also it is pretty common sense that level scaling is a crutch, I'm surprised this subject lasted this far, honestly.

I wonder if my English is just bad or your comprehension of what I say is very biased.
I compared old games like Baldur's Gate without mods to Tyranny.
Have you ever played BG without SCS?
I have many years ago and I wouldn't even waste my time on it without soloing SCS if I look for a proper workout.
Even with SCS too many mechanics in that game are super abusable especially invisibility, you can break old games in so many ways, devs didn't care a bit about balance back then.

 

[GreatAlucard]

I believe you didn't quite got what I said, not an issue though.

Tyranny is not hard, at all, even in the hardest difficulty you can pretty much just send everyone to battle and wait, with minor micro managing.

Baldur's Gate specifically is not particularly hard, which is why I said some examples that Luckman listed might not work, although, still, most of the examples he listed do work for reinforcing the fact that level scaling is a crutch.

Also, he was completely correct when pointing out that the lack of level scaling doesn't mean an easier game, as that is indeed a fallacy.

Still, pointing out a way to abuse a mechanic is not that much of a case in favor or against level scaling, after all, one could say that in any game with random encounters (or respawning enemies) you can get max level in the first area, it is the truth, but it is not efficient so not really a good argument.

I fully understand the fact that you like level scaling in RPGs, and that is completely subjective.

Objectively it is very hard to make a compelling case in favor of level scaling other than that it allows developers to dedicate time elsewhere.

 

[Victor Creed]

Oh, you're talking about the need to micro a full party, that has nothing to do with difficulty.
Tyrannys AI, tho too crappy for me, I prefer to solo Potd, is way better than AI in older games.
Also why compare to Morrowind, if that decides how hard a game is?
I pointed out how you can abuse leveling in BG not because of random encounters or level scaling, but because you can get to max level before you fight any enemies that theoretically could be a challenge if you were not max level.
Also you don't get the xp through random encounters, the basilisk map is a fixed spawn and so is Durlags towers exterior, it's just ridiculously easy enemies that give a shitton of xp.

Ofc this is subjective but the argument that scaling makes the game easier is flawed and doesn't apply to any actual rpgs (at least unmodded)
Now if you were to say Fallout 4, I can understand I'm not gonna kill a Mirelurk queen on level 1 in open territory on Survival, ut even that game has level scaling on top of the high level enemies you could theoretically fight at low level.

 

[phyriel]

I give you guys a challenge... potd solo run (not iron man tho, no point) but no leashing packs and no abusing idiot AI that will stand behind corner because its too stupid to handle it? Think possible? I doubt because... there you go... level scaling.

Oh yea I'd forget you also have to side with chorus so you face those 6-7 enemy packs with 2 earthmages... ofc you don't yet have maxed wrath for disfavored so you can't make them immune to ashe aegis... so u pretty much have to kill them twice. Challenge accepted anyone?

 

[GreatAlucard]

Level scaling objectively makes games easier when compared to games with good level design, I'm not sure what your point is when arguing against a fact...

You are quite literally pointing out a way of abusing game mechanics as an argument in favor of level scaling... I mean... Bud... The only thing you can actually criticize with that is the fact that said way of abusing the game was not fixed it has literally NOTHING to do with level scaling (if anything said mobs would give MORE exp if their level was scaled).

I don't even know where you pulled Morrowind out of.

And saying that the need to micro a full party has nothing to do with difficulty is wrong on so many levels... It's fine if you prefer to play solo, really, but that doesn't defend either side of the argument.

Also, level scaling WILL make the game EASIER if the player builds at least half efficiently, there is no way around that FACT because of the way level scaling works (when built at min / max rates scaling turns whatever game into a complete joke in terms of difficulty).

I'd suggest reading a few developer opinions on the matter. It is pretty well spread that scaling is a crutch, it works (most of the time) but it is still a crutch used to save time, if that message didn't get across until now I'm not sure of what else could be pointed out.

 

[phyriel]

Alucard you need to start quoting who are you replying to was it at me or?

 

[GreatAlucard]

Last message was directed at Victor.

About what you said, while it might be fun to do, I'm not sure if the game is even supposed to be balanced around playing alone.

If the fights were actually designed for a party of 4, it should be at least close to impossible to finish that way without any form of abusing the AI (such as leashing)

 

[Victor Creed]

Only playing solo shows you how difficult the game really is and that was my point, too.
I quoted Morrowind because it was another game Luckmann mentioned.
You say abusing early xp in BG has nothing to do with level scaling, you are wrong.
The enemies I get massive xp from are weaksauce because they don't level with me, if enemies got harder while I gain levels I couldn't easily kill encounters that originally were supposed to be tough.

 

[ecogen]

I give you guys a challenge... potd solo run (not iron man tho, no point) but no leashing packs and no abusing idiot AI that will stand behind corner because its too stupid to handle it? Think possible? I doubt because... there you go... level scaling.

Oh yea I'd forget you also have to side with chorus so you face those 6-7 enemy packs with 2 earthmages... ofc you don't yet have maxed wrath for disfavored so you can't make them immune to ashe aegis... so u pretty much have to kill them twice. Challenge accepted anyone?

The only problem with a solo run in PotD is probably Act 1, I pretty much did act 2-3 solo no problems without even trying on my first playthrough.

 

[GreatAlucard]

Victor, you are having a real hard time understanding this, but I'm a patient guy.

If you're getting massive xp from a weak enemy, and you can do it over and over again, that is BAD level design and experience scaling. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with level scaling. (I really can't put it in any simpler way, you are literally using the word "abuse" i don't know what's creating the problem here).

In fact, if in that case, the enemy had it's level adjusted to yours, pretty much nothing would change, it could take longer because the enemy would get increased stats, but in the way scaling works it would never get to a point where you cannot exploit it in the same way.

About playing solo, if the game is NOT DESIGNED to play solo, and you choose to challenge yourself by doing it, it has no place in a discussion about game difficulty, because the game difficulty was designed to play with a party. All you could say is X game is hard WHEN PLAYING SOLO. Saying X game is hard (having played a game designed for a party while being solo) would simply be a false statement.

IF the game is in any way designed to play SOLO and not with a party, then yes, it may be an indication of difficulty.

 

[Luckmann]

Um, Luckmann, don't say Baldur's gate, if you actually mean Baldur's Gate 2.
In Baldur's Gate there's only weakling enemies before you enter Act 2, you don't have any freedom to move around and if you solo and abuse the basilisks and Durlag's towers exterior you are actually max level when you enter Act 2.

Besides without mods the difficulty in those games is hilariously lo and not even comparable to Tyranny.

Not sure if you're actually trolling, or simply this basic.

The original Baldur's Gate is a lot harder than Baldur's Gate II, overall, and the difficulty of Tyranny (or PoE, for that matter) doesn't hold a candle to either of them, anyway. Tyranny is an absolute cakewalk. At present, all I'm doing for each fight is buff Verse up with three spells, after which she completely devastates anything she comes into contact with.

And either way, the subject wasn't difficulty per see, but level scaling. Level-scaling, in general, results in far easier encounters overall, since it's practically impossible to come up against anything challenging; the game will always compensate for you, inflating or deflating encounters to allow smooth sailing based on your level. It's lazy pacing and encounter design, nothing more, nothing less.

It's used in lieu of having to actually playtest and anticipate player interaction with the game world and create encounters based on that - it's far easier to simply say "He's level X, so here he'll meet Z number of level X+/-Y opponents, regardless of when or how he gets here." That's the gist of it, and that will always cause issues, not just narrative ones, what with peasant chaff suddenly becoming combat gods.

 

[ringhloth]

"I played a game on the hardest difficulty, with a very non-standard build, in an inefficient manner, and I lost!"

No surprises.

 

[phyriel]

Not sure if you're actually trolling, or simply this basic.
Tyranny is an absolute cakewalk. At present, all I'm doing for each fight is buff Verse up with three spells, after which she completely devastates anything she comes into contact with.

If you guys are interested in how it look like

imagine you can also buff your party with elemental weapons for extra oomph

 

[phyriel]

The only problem with a solo run in PotD is probably Act 1, I pretty much did act 2-3 solo no problems without even trying on my first playthrough.

I really wanna see act 2 solo potd without any kind of ai abuse (leash).

 

[Victor Creed]

Luckmann + Alucard, this is my last reply to you, since we just have different views and this is not gonna change thru a discussion.
@Alucard I repeated continously that I was not talking about respawning an enemy, but using the fixed spawns that originally are ona map.
Also I spoke about ag game (BG) originally quoted as having good level design by Luckmann and now you say it has bad level design?

@Luckmann
No, just no, the original BG without mods is not a hard game, sorry but I don't know how you define hard.

 

[Luckmann]

[...]

@Luckmann
No, just no, the original BG without mods is not a hard game, sorry but I don't know how you define hard.

I never said it was hard. But at this point, I think it's obvious that you're missing the points on purpose. Have fun in your level-scaled worlds where peasants and dragons are about the same, and nothing is a challenge off the beaten path.

 

[phyriel]

Guys since this became rather retarded thread let me offtop it into more pleasant direction... so I've been rambling about how stupid leashing is and how it makes me dislike continuing because it just feels too repetitive, dumb and at the same this rather unavoidable in early game... but I'm looking for a ways to actually make my chracter able to stand toe to toe with like 6 or 7 enemies at all times as soon as possible and I think I found a way... but... ofc there is a but... it requires max favor with bronze brotherhood... named aura of rage. I think if you get a build focused on light armor, shield + 1h and use illusion magic (maybe even frost for afflictions, not sure, im using it atm but I'm thinking its waste of time casting it in combat having minimum wits... probably its just better to swing autoattack and hope for double, tripple slashes proc), then you mix in agility and leadership talents (duelist, arrow shield, feint being most crucial) and with bronze brotherhood aura of rage i think you could be able to stand toe to toe without leashing... the idea is to burst down squishiest target first as I was fortunate enough to get gloves that give me enrage after killing a target. Question is tho how to get bronze brotherhood favor maxed quickly. I think conquest decisions are most vital with this faction.

 

[Victor Creed]

Yea, if you don't go Scarlet chorus in conquest it should be easy to max bronze brotherhood.
I went Scarlet and still got massive favour the first time I visited their map.
But tbh you don't need to rely on split pulling from level 19 onward if you go with shield, since enemies don't level anymore and you should be at 200 parry at that point + mirror image 125 (? is that the max number or is there a better sigil?) combined with max deflection, now if you've been focusing on your spell potential maxing either resolve or wits you don't necessarily need a talent to kill foes quickly.