UK = Paper tiger in HoD?

[Arentak]

Without player intervention, the UK is likely to slip behind Germany, USA or even France by the turn of century in an average game, which makes me feel really sad, since the game is called Victoria II. It is my opinion that the UK need a little buffing.

This sounds like a historical outcome in terms of Germany and the USA. France's excellent late-game performance is surprising and ahistorical.

 

[blaidd]

This sounds like a historical outcome in terms of Germany and the USA.

Yeah. The main reason the UK fares so much more poorly now in late game score as compared to AHD took me some thinking to figure out, but is actually very simple. The AI pretty much always releases Australia and Canada as dominions. Those two countries are quite capable of becoming Great Powers on their own. Before HoD the UK didn't release them, it turned them into states and built factories there. That's like 1000+ points of score it loses just from releasing Canada. This is historical so it's not necessarily a bad thing.

France's excellent late-game performance is surprising and ahistorical.

Well, if Germany wrecks them in a Great War or two their late game performance is pretty abysmal. I haven't seen them drop off the GP list except when I was fighting them, but I often see them down around the 5-7 range by the end. Heck, in my Philippines game I finished ahead of France and I never set foot in Europe or participate in any European or African wars, not even once. (I did fight the French Navy a few times in Asia, but never in Europe)


I have also started a UK game as of yesterday. I selected a random country and got the UK, so I decided to give it a shot. I was very surprised by how small their lead really is in HoD and how few troops they have. 20 years into the game I haven't managed to build a single brigade in North America or Africa, so I had to ferry troops there from India. Since the AI always has at least one stack there, I guess the AI must ferry troops as well. Either that or they NF soldiers a lot. But I know I don't have the forces in England to stop a French or German invasion. My only hope is keeping them out with the Navy. And that's the way it ought to be really.

Everyone should play a bit as the UK. I've always avoided them because I thought it would be too easy and it is pretty easy, but it's also pretty complicated. I'm not surprised the AI has more trouble with it than other nations.

 

[Beagá]

So France or Prussia are the new easy mode then.

IMO I think what screws the UK is the massive amount of illiterate POPs they have. Maybe decreasing prussian and french literacy is needed to rebalance the game. Maybe US literacy too.

 

[Darsara]

So France or Prussia are the new easy mode then.

Wait, Prussia is the "new" easy mode?

 

[Beagá]

Considering even AI Prussia can make Netherlands eat Belgium in 1836... I think they are pretty powerful.

 

[rmax92]

Well, if Germany wrecks them in a Great War or two their late game performance is pretty abysmal. I haven't seen them drop off the GP list except when I was fighting them, but I often see them down around the 5-7 range by the end. Heck, in my Philippines game I finished ahead of France and I never set foot in Europe or participate in any European or African wars, not even once. (I did fight the French Navy a few times in Asia, but never in Europe)

In my last Game as Germany I beat France in FOUR great wars, freeing all of Occiatian and Brittany, cutting them down to size, releasing ALL their colonies. They still ALWAYS made it back to GP (usually rank 4-6, well ahead of the lower GPs). They bounce back within 2 to three years everytime.

France is the only GP where its IMPOSSIBLE to kick them out of the top 8. Every other GP is quite easy to kick out (except USA due to immigration+literacy+army+fleet+industrialisation+big population but thats fair enough. France usually only has about 6-8 mil pops in my late games (with core FRA and only FRA cores (no OCC or BRE).

 

[Darsara]

Considering even AI Prussia can make Netherlands eat Belgium in 1836... I think they are pretty powerful.

I mean that I though Prussia has been "easy mode" since version 1.0.

 

[unmerged(376721)]

UK had less manpower than a totally formed Reich, unless you include the colonies. So it´s not unrealistic that will have a hard time fighting Germany 1vs1 on land. Add to that that the military tech will lag behind a bit due to their academy and literacy compared to Germany... Hell, didn´t even France had more manpower than UK if you count only Great Britain?

I did a quick check, apparently the UK (including Ireland) has about the same pop size as France at 40 mil in 1900, whilst Germany has 55-6 mil. I am ok with the UK home isles has slightly less brigades than France and Germany. But at the moment, the disparity is a little too big.

IMO NGF is forming too early however, and THAT´S the main balance problem the game has.

Agree.

This sounds like a historical outcome in terms of Germany and the USA. France's excellent late-game performance is surprising and ahistorical.

I actually do not agree. By 1900, UK has already upgraded her industry to a service-oriented one. The UK was international financial powerhouse, exporting capital all over the world. Sadly, this soft industry score is not represented in the current system of industry score calculation. IIRC, Germany’s GDP never overtook UK’s pre-1914. And USA only overtook the UK after WW1.
In game, I as UK only manage to say no. 1 in industry in 1868 by a mere 20-points lead vs NGF. NGF! Not even Germany!

Yeah. The main reason the UK fares so much more poorly now in late game score as compared to AHD took me some thinking to figure out, but is actually very simple. The AI pretty much always releases Australia and Canada as dominions. Those two countries are quite capable of becoming Great Powers on their own. Before HoD the UK didn't release them, it turned them into states and built factories there. That's like 1000+ points of score it loses just from releasing Canada. This is historical so it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah. Bear in mind though, that an independent Canada or Australia will be much more powerful compare to under Brit’s control due to the immigrant bonus thing.

I have also started a UK game as of yesterday. I selected a random country and got the UK, so I decided to give it a shot. I was very surprised by how small their lead really is in HoD and how few troops they have. 20 years into the game I haven't managed to build a single brigade in North America or Africa, so I had to ferry troops there from India.

Yup, in my opinion, it needs a little buff up. Literacy boost is most welcome.

Everyone should play a bit as the UK. I've always avoided them because I thought it would be too easy and it is pretty easy, but it's also pretty complicated. I'm not surprised the AI has more trouble with it than other nations.

The UK is a unique country where oversea holdings > home isles. No other country has this issue, and it seems like the AI logic can’t handle this situation properly, thus making it a paper tiger.

 

[Beagá]

I did a quick check, apparently the UK (including Ireland) has about the same pop size as France at 40 mil in 1900, whilst Germany has 55-6 mil. I am ok with the UK home isles has slightly less brigades than France and Germany. But at the moment, the disparity is a little too big.

I actually do not agree. By 1900, UK has already upgraded her industry to a service-oriented one. The UK was international financial powerhouse, exporting capital all over the world. Sadly, this soft industry score is not represented in the current system of industry score calculation. IIRC, Germany’s GDP never overtook UK’s pre-1914. And USA only overtook the UK after WW1.
In game, I as UK only manage to say no. 1 in industry in 1868 by a mere 20-points lead vs NGF. NGF! Not even Germany!

Yeah NGF is a powerhouse and you don´t want to see the UberReich...

Both France and Prussia deserve a literacy nerf. Or a LIT buff to UK. Meanwhile the issue of early NGF should also be adressed. I did try a game as Prussia since some people think it isn´t easy mode and noticed that Austria fails hard at keeping Saxony in their SOI. How bad? 1837 and they already lost it to me... Netherlands went at their rage spree allied with Russia and Portugal, DOWed them (since Russia was at war with UK they didn´t bother to help NL lol), and already got Java, the island of the Happy Sulphur Bunnies