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Invader_Canuck

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UK being a naval and economic powerhouse just seemed to have such an underwhelming performance in the World Wars. I guess in WW2 you can make at least make a strong case they showed awesome grit for stomaching it out alone against Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded the USSR, but still......what were the main factors for such poor showing?

I would like to posit this question instead.

What was the USA's excuse? The USA had everything going for it in both World Wars, and barely showed in Europe for both. In WW1, economic super power. Massive population, US forces barely saw combat, majority that shipped out sat in spain and england.

In WW2, even bigger economic super power, even bigger population, sat out Europe until the war was truly well and decided.

Britain at least fought tooth and nail through both wars, and facing the greatest land power of the day, managed to hold on.
 
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Invader_Canuck

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How many of them lived in India? How many Indians served? 400 million, and 1.25 million. There goes 80% of your "500 million population". By your reckoning, UK should have just armed Indians, while keeping englishmen working in the factories - that would have supplied more weapons to the army and all. Yet they did not do it. Must have been a reason. Like unreliability of Indians or something.


I'm not sure where you're going with the last sentence. The reason why the British Empire almost never used armies made up of PoC (people of color) in Europe, is because it was considered somehow barbaric or uncivilized.

In addition, these were colonial possessions. You've built the stability of your empire on ingraining into the native people an idea of "white superiority". Arming people of color and telling them to go kill white people was something that was considered a last act of desperation. You can't just let Indians and Pakistanis run around slaughtering white people and then expect that after the war they are going to go back to accepting the status-quo that the white man was a magical unicorn of superior everything. Also, you don't want to militarize a region like India. It was classic divide and conquer. Pick out the "martial" races, like Gurkhas and Sihks and use them to maintain order by giving them an elevated position. It's all very convoluted and complicated. Rest assured, if Britain threw all in with the Indian forces at its disposal, it most likely would have won WW1 very rapidly, crushing Germany, and then promptly lost the majority of its overseas colonies 30 years sooner.

Indian forces however saw plenty of action, they just saw it outside of Europe.
 
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Victor Cortez

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UK being a naval and economic powerhouse just seemed to have such an underwhelming performance in the World Wars. I guess in WW2 you can make at least make a strong case they showed awesome grit for stomaching it out alone against Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded the USSR, but still......what were the main factors for such poor showing?

Interesting because I've always thought that Britain overperformed during the Second World War. As sort of "swan-song gift" by the British Empire to the rest of the western Europe.
They fought alone a clearly superior enemy while being a democracy. In a time (that of war) when being a democracy is clearly a malus. They've managed to keep the Empire itself in place during the war which is not easy task (the Dominions could have very well said f-off, we're out). They fought in all theaters of war (whereas the USSR focused on a few thoudsand KMs of front) with a not particularly big population. They nailed the naval war. They mastered espionage and totally humiliated the axis. They paid a high price for their victory (the Empire itself essentially).
 
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Invader_Canuck

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Interesting because I've always thought that Britain overperformed during the Second World War. As sort of "swan-song gift" by the British Empire to the rest of the western Europe.
They fought alone a clearly superior enemy while being a democracy. In a time (that of war) when being a democracy is clearly a malus. They've managed to keep the Empire itself in place during the war which is not easy task (the Dominions could have very well said f-off, we're out). They fought in all theaters of war (whereas the USSR focused on a few thoudsand KMs of front) with a not particularly big population. They nailed the naval war. They mastered espionage and totally humiliated the axis. They paid a high price for their victory (the Empire itself essentially).

But in the combined theaters the British fought in, they had a combined few hundred kilometers of front ;p
 

paranoidsteve

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UK being a naval and economic powerhouse just seemed to have such an underwhelming performance in the World Wars. I guess in WW2 you can make at least make a strong case they showed awesome grit for stomaching it out alone against Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded the USSR, but still......what were the main factors for such poor showing?

If ignorance is bliss you must be very happy. The first world war ended when the German population could no longer stomach the privations they suffered due to the UK blockade. This resulted in a large number of the military not admitting that they lost the war...they felt it was some commie/jewish plot , not their own failure to understand the actual workings of total war. This same ignorance was the primary reason for the start of the 2nd world war.

I love your idea that the British empire put up a poor showing...and yet still managed to win in both wars.
 
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Vanguard44

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Ok.

If you want to understand the British land war effort [against Germany] in WWII, there are pretty much 3 essential texts.

The first is 'And We Shall Shock Them: The British Army in the Second World War' by David Fraser, which provides a broad overview of British land operations. The second is 'Raising Churchill's Army: The British Army and the War against Germany 1919-1945' by David French, which details the path of British doctrine, personnel and operational intentions as well as the institutional inertia that characterises Britain and especially its army. The third is a revisionist text called 'Monty's Men: The British Army and the Liberation of Europe' by John Buckley which analyses why the British Army performed the way it did in NW Europe 1944-1945 and dismisses some key misconceptions.

But let's start with WWI. The short answer is that Britain was not impotent. It had its finest moments however, in 1918, at the end of the war. It was able to field a large Army with respect to how many personnel it had in the Navy -- much larger than it fielded in WWII in terms of combat formations. It was the only army that at the end of the war could move whole Armies around in the field and take offensive action with them. Reason for this later.

It has been said that the British Army has always trained for the last war. This is a bit of an untrue statement: the British Army did not get a formal doctrine until 1989 and the publication of the British Military Doctrine by General Nigel Bagnall. This was true in 1930 and true in 1940 and true in 1950 etc. What Britain instead had was totally different quality depending on two factors:
Firstly, training by unit commanders. Some men were excellent at training troops -- others were not.
Secondly, the ability of units to a) train with other combat arms b) actually work with those same units they had trained with in battle.

When you had all of those put together, in 1944-1945 Britain was able to, on multiple occasions, beat up the German Army and the SS in open battle, man to man. In other cases, where these factors couldn't be fulfilled, the British didn't do nearly so well. There's also something to say about the average British soldier. He was of course a conscript, but the 1930 Field Regulations forbade any kind of political indoctrination. Britain was also the only major country in WWII which did not shoot any of its own soldiers for desertion or threaten to: this was outlawed in the same Field Regulations.

In both world wars, Britain had outstanding, perhaps the best, combat service support in terms of logistical supply, tactical military intelligence, engineering, and medical support. This is what enabled them to go on fighting in the first war, and is a major factor for operational and tactical success. Combat service support can be considered a multiplying factor in capability and is often ignored. Comparing a German infantry division on the eastern front with a British one on the western front: the British one would be vastly superior. It would eb larger, it would have much better logistical support -- especially in terms of ammunition -- and have more tanks and artillery and trucks. In fact a British 'Army Tank Brigade', of which there were ten on the Western front, had twice as many tanks as a German tank division.

The reason for this is manpower. Britain wanted to fight a war with mechanics, not blood. The major downfall of the British infantry is that they would not fight without artillery superiority. Advances stalled as units waited for artillery to simply plaster over everything in sight. Britain didn't even have good artillery until the later water, although it did have excellent artillery cooperation practices.

Of course, someone said that Britain and France had similar population sizes. This is definitely true. But France hadn't the Navy of Britain. Britain had 100 cruisers in WW2 -- each about the size of a battalion, enough to form 30 brigades. Then of course, hundreds of destroyers and submarines, thousands of patrol boats, ands o on. It also had to man hundreds of bases all across the world and defend those bases with troops and anti-air units and aircraft. It was essentially backed up against the principal disadvantage of being a maritime power: a lack of interior lines. If you have 10 men to defend a shop, you may concentrate them. If you have 10 men to defend a shopping mall, you can never concentrate. You must disperse. Britain's power in WWII was totally dispersed, across the sea lanes, foreign bases, colonial assets, and so on. Consequently it could only put 20 divisions & 10 very large brigades into the fight for Europe, although they were large and excellently supported units.

There is of course no doubt that Britain failed majestically on more than one occasion. Usually this was a result of two things:
- A failure to prepare and be ready.
- A failure to provide good equipment and training.

They both are partly political and partly due to Army inertia.

One last point: Britain's major forgotten approach to war was strategic bombing. It produced a huge quantity of four engined bomber aircraft with which it laid waste to Germany. This was seen at eh time as being a major contribution, at least by the British themselves, and in terms of effort it was not small. However -- I dont have answer to this myself -- it is possible that the effects of strategic bombing were really minor, in which case you can put down Britains impotence to having chosen and carried out with huge effort a totally ineffectual military policy. It seems unlikely to me that bombing had no effect, but it is of course definitely possible.
 
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Vanguard44

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Also the British Indian Army was the largest volunteer Army in world history. In world history. Most of it was used for internal security, but when it was deployed overseas, Indians showed themselves easily capable of beating up Italians and Germans. And they fought harder and with more determination against Japan than either their British or Australian brothers in arms.

All attempts to get Indians to defect to Axis side resulted in the pathetic Indian National Army, which had complete paucity of volunteers and defectors, and was so unreliable in battle (unlike British Indian Army units) probably because it was composed of low quality personnel.

The Indians who fought and died for the British Empire in WWII were neither forced to do so by the British nor tricked. They flocked to the colours because:
a) They believed that India, if it was on the winning side of WWII, would get a better political deal. It did. In no other war have a people who were brutally tyrannised by a despotism volunteered to fight for that despotism because they trusted it to give them freedom later. The real truth is that Indians weren't tyrannised and the British Raj was no more of a despotism than what they had had before or, to be honest, what they had later in many areas.
b) For many of them, Sikhs and Gurkhas, military service was seen as an honourable male pursuit.

General Slim took troops from Africa, from India, and from Britain, combined them into a single unified fighting force with a determined aim, and when he led them into battle against some of the best troops of the Japanese Empire in possibly some of the worst fighting terrain in the world, utterly crushed the Japanese Burma Area Army. He did so with a force composed mainly of Indian volunteers.
 
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Bronterre

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Britain has similar manpower to France but has never had a tradition of civilian conscription outside of war time this means that the majority of our manpower has to be trained from scratch which causes issues. Also Britain is quite heavily industrialized and as that industry came into use for the war that required a lot of otherwise military suitable men to stay home due to necessary war work, I'm not sure how conscription hit French industry as it was a short war while that mattered. Combine that with the losses from world war 1 (as lots of men were killed or maimed or psychologically broken by the war there were a lot of unmarried women and so less children born after the 1st world war who would have been the ones to fight the 2nd) and Britain did have a manpower shortage.

Next you have our priorities, basically the Army was pretty much one of the last groups in terms of importance (I think coastal command might have been higher rated even perhaps) with the navy and airforce being the priorities and this goes for manpower as well. Next we had to arm the empire, while we didn't arm them all (a lot they produced themselves off patterns we gave them) we did provide a lot of equipment so that means more towards production and away from fighting. As we were a marshalling yard for actions in Europe and for transhipping to other fronts from America that also limits how much manpower can be used for other things. Also the things we did prioritize took a hell of a lot of manpower to support (ship building, supply and training before you even get to manning the ships and aircraft) which again limits the number of men we could put in the field.

India is an odd case as basically we took only volunteers as that was seen as a way of reducing problems but even then a lot of Indians captured by the Japanese (though a very small percentage and I really can't blame them for that at all) joined an axis puppet Indian army (and some of the ones captured by the germans joined a SS unit but that was just for propaganda purposes). Also the British had a weird idea about martial races and tried to only recruit from races they felt made superior soldiers.

By the end of the war we'd been fighting for 5 years and were finding it difficult to replace losses much like the Russians but on a much smaller scale (The Russians were so desperate for manpower they were taking men from prisoner camps and sending them straight to the front, never got that bad for the uk), there is a reason why the majority of manpower for the japanse invasion was planned to be Canadian rather then british.
 

Ivan_W_S

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"Impotence" I'd like to see you strolling up Sword Beach playing the bagpipes whilst your mates around you are slaughtered by German machine gun fire and blown apart by explosives.

The Brits always provide some of the most eccentric and memorable personalities in WW2. Lord Lovat and his bagpipe player Millin on Sword Beach. Jack Churchill who carried a broadsword into a gun fight and killed German soldiers with a longbow. British commando units during Lofoten Island raid wrote a telegram addressed to A. Hitler of Berlin asking where were the German troops as the operation went without opposition. Orde Wingate and his eccentricities, which included carrying raw onions and garlic around his neck and ate them raw to ward off insects, giving orders to his troops when naked.
 
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Mabs

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Fougasse-Cartoons-Punch-1940-07-17-63.jpg
 
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Shade205

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I would like to posit this question instead.

What was the USA's excuse? The USA had everything going for it in both World Wars, and barely showed in Europe for both. In WW1, economic super power. Massive population, US forces barely saw combat, majority that shipped out sat in spain and england.

In WW2, even bigger economic super power, even bigger population, sat out Europe until the war was truly well and decided.

Britain at least fought tooth and nail through both wars, and facing the greatest land power of the day, managed to hold on.

Let's be clear on this one, USA doesn't need an excuse. USA hardly had a reason to care about ww1, what business was it of theirs? Europeans have been killing eachother for a long time let them keep doing it. I would argue the outcome of ww1 no matter who won would have little effect on the USA just territorial changes for the powers that fought.

As for WW2 USA showed up real quick once attacked in the theater that mattered for them which was the Pacific as that's where the enemy that attacked them is from. And then showed up in Europe to prevent a total Russian victory.

Why waste precious manpower and resources in Europe? Unless fully united under one nation it will never threaten the United States. Even now California ALONE has a bigger GDP than any European country besides Germany, UK, and France.
 
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Personally, as a British personage myself, I feel that we are rather important but that is just my opinion. Hope I don't offend any of you chaps.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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I'm not sure where you're going with the last sentence. The reason why the British Empire almost never used armies made up of PoC (people of color) in Europe, is because it was considered somehow barbaric or uncivilized.

In addition, these were colonial possessions. You've built the stability of your empire on ingraining into the native people an idea of "white superiority". Arming people of color and telling them to go kill white people was something that was considered a last act of desperation. You can't just let Indians and Pakistanis run around slaughtering white people and then expect that after the war they are going to go back to accepting the status-quo that the white man was a magical unicorn of superior everything. Also, you don't want to militarize a region like India. It was classic divide and conquer. Pick out the "martial" races, like Gurkhas and Sihks and use them to maintain order by giving them an elevated position. It's all very convoluted and complicated. Rest assured, if Britain threw all in with the Indian forces at its disposal, it most likely would have won WW1 very rapidly, crushing Germany, and then promptly lost the majority of its overseas colonies 30 years sooner.

Indian forces however saw plenty of action, they just saw it outside of Europe.
Yeah, this is total bollocks and you know it.

Also, my SJW detector is beeping.
 
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77Hawk77

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How many of them lived in India? How many Indians served? 400 million, and 1.25 million. There goes 80% of your "500 million population". By your reckoning, UK should have just armed Indians, while keeping englishmen working in the factories - that would have supplied more weapons to the army and all. Yet they did not do it. Must have been a reason. Like unreliability of Indians or something.

More than 2 million indians served in ww2 as far as i am aware, and africans served too.
Unless you're suggesting indians are inferior to british people, then i am sure the indians would have made fine soldiers. Of course the british were afraid of indians with guns, in the way that most empires were afraid of non-whites out numbering white people with guns, but that's is an imperial problem, not a manpower one.
The British empire had way more manpower than just about anyone else, they couldn't or wouldn't utilize it all for various reasons like fear of insurrection.
Also the British Proper population was around 47 million compared to germany's 80 million. With 3.5 million people serving in the british army, they conscripted not even 10% of their population while germany had more than 20 million people in circulation of their armed forces, which is atleasat 25% of their population, and they didn't have a huge empire to supply them, when they took people out of factories.

I'm not saying Britain was impotent in ww2, considering they still supplied several million combat troops on the ground and a lot of navy equipment too, but i think if they really wanted to they could have fielded much larger armies.
 
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Yeah, this is total bollocks and you know it.

Also, my SJW detector is beeping.

This was a real consideration.

The maintenance of Indian perception of Brits as better people with an inherent right to rule was something the British cared about deeply. The whole Raj was a bit of a confidence game where the British kept everyone divided and dependent.

For a good illumination on British Policy, see this.


They did use Indians extensively in Europe during WW1 but Indians were always under the command of British officers and they kept the units mixed. They did not want fully Indian units.
Subash Chandra Bose, who led the Indian National Army for the Axis, is still a national hero in India.

I just visited the commonwealth war grave in Guwahati in Northeast India and it has 461 graves with Australians, Canadians, Brits and Indians.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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This was a real consideration.

The maintenance of Indian perception of Brits as better people with an inherent right to rule was something the British cared about deeply. The whole Raj was a bit of a confidence game where the British kept everyone divided and dependent.

For a good illumination on British Policy, see this.


They did use Indians extensively in Europe during WW1 but Indians were always under the command of British officers and they kept the units mixed. They did not want fully Indian units.
Subash Chandra Bose, who led the Indian National Army for the Axis, is still a national hero in India.

I just visited the commonwealth war grave in Guwahati in Northeast India and it has 461 graves with Australians, Canadians, Brits and Indians.
See I agree with this i just disagree with the whole racial part which in reality had little effect on the decisions of leaders. They didn't care or oppress them because they were black, they did it because they were afraid of revolt or them gaining too much power.
 
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See I agree with this i just disagree with the whole racial part which in reality had little effect on the decisions of leaders. They didn't care or oppress them because they were black, they did it because they were afraid of revolt or them gaining too much power.


This sadly is wrong, very wrong. Leaders of this time were very rascist, and also openly admitted it. Winston Churchill in particular.

"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.". - Winston Churchill


Also another citation

Churchill certainly believed in racial hierarchies and eugenics, says John Charmley, author of Churchill: The End of Glory. In Churchill's view, white protestant Christians were at the top, above white Catholics, while Indians were higher than Africans, he adds. "Churchill saw himself and Britain as being the winners in a social Darwinian hierarchy."

An interesting article that covers controversies on Winston Churchill

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767

It's easy to look at the Allies through rose colored glasses as the good guys but don't forget history is NEVER black and white. The Nazis were certainly evil but the United States practice eugenics up until the mid 1930s (possibly longer), Churchill and English leadership had pro german supporters before and during the war and had some harsh views on race Churchill in particular was guilty of this and Stalin was arguebly a worse evil than Hitler.
 
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This sadly is wrong, very wrong. Leaders of this time were very rascist, and also openly admitted it. Winston Churchill in particular.

"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.". - Winston Churchill


Also another citation

Churchill certainly believed in racial hierarchies and eugenics, says John Charmley, author of Churchill: The End of Glory. In Churchill's view, white protestant Christians were at the top, above white Catholics, while Indians were higher than Africans, he adds. "Churchill saw himself and Britain as being the winners in a social Darwinian hierarchy."

An interesting article that covers controversies on Winston Churchill

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767

It's easy to look at the Allies through rose colored glasses as the good guys but don't forget history is NEVER black and white. The Nazis were certainly evil but the United States practice eugenics up until the mid 1930s (possibly longer), Churchill and English leadership had pro german supporters before and during the war and had some harsh views on race Churchill in particular was guilty of this and Stalin was arguebly a worse evil than Hitler.
Again I agree that Churchill was racist, I just don't think that had much effect on his leadership (aside from his increased ignorance of Indians in famine since he didn't really care). But I'm not Churchill so obviously we cant be sure if it did not.

This is offtopic however so back on topic...

If the UK was more prepared and made better decisions they could of had a much easier time, but I'd say they were still a very important contributor to the allies, behind only the USSR and possibly the US too.
 
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